53 replies to this topic

[Berrick]

Wha........ In terms of experience Akisame has a large knowledge of martial arts, really every master does since their are only so many ways you can arm lock right. Sie Dou is only for emergency, as it would damage his body greatly. The only time he used it was to stop Ryo's advance, which consisted of Apachia, Akisame, Ma, and Sakaki. All of this was to stop the osnf that had turned and Ryo for their Eternal sunset to work. And guess what, he not some Legendary master. Here, referance:http://i15.mangapand...chi-5166289.jpg They are still fighting.

http://www.mangapand...-kenichi/582/16

http://www.mangapand...-kenichi/582/15 Even though, as masters do, he shrugs it off, blood from the eyes is not a healthy thing.

 

On the last one, for some reason, it adds the even from the sentence I wrote after words. Just delete it and you good to go 

 

 

It is kind of difficult to tell who has more knowledgeable between the two. As far as Ogata using Sei Dou Goui is concerned, I don't believe there's enough info to tell when he would use it in a battle with his equal. When he does use it, it would likely turn the tide of battle, whenever he did decide to use it.

Edited by ki0, February 20 2015 - 11:23 PM.

[Combatmaster1o3]

In a battle with Akisame vs Ogata, we really have not seen Ogata fight much at all. Neither Akisame. However, I have no fantasies of Ogata having far more knowledge in martial arts, since that literally is one of Akisame's features is that he is incredibly knowledgable and a quick learn. He is a genius, tried and true. Ogata is also a passionate genius, and his research for quick methods to gain power pay off with a price *sometimes*.

[Nacchi]

In a battle with Akisame vs Ogata, we really have not seen Ogata fight much at all. Neither Akisame. However, I have no fantasies of Ogata having far more knowledge in martial arts, since that literally is one of Akisame's features is that he is incredibly knowledgable and a quick learn. He is a genius, tried and true. Ogata is also a passionate genius, and his research for quick methods to gain power pay off with a price *sometimes*.

I agree that we've barely seen Ogata fight, but Akisame did have some fights. Moste notable were the ones against Alexander (x 2) and against the Spear of the East.

[Combatmaster1o3]

I agree that we've barely seen Ogata fight, but Akisame did have some fights. Moste notable were the ones against Alexander (x 2) and against the Spear of the East.

Not nearly enough to discern how he fights as much as how ingenious he is(also how retardedly strong he is). He is a powerfull,smart, and skillful master. However we don't have his style, like how we can gauge fights between masters such as Hongo, Sakaki, most osnf, Apachia, and Ma. We have a lot of fight material in a way we don't with Akisame and Kensie. We had a better gauge of the Executioner blades than with Akisame because of their fight with OP Shigure.

[Nacchi]

Not nearly enough to discern how he fights as much as how ingenious he is(also how retardedly strong he is). He is a powerfull,smart, and skillful master. However we don't have his style, like how we can gauge fights between masters such as Hongo, Sakaki, most osnf, Apachia, and Ma. We have a lot of fight material in a way we don't with Akisame and Kensie. We had a better gauge of the Executioner blades than with Akisame because of their fight with OP Shigure.

You are right about that, now that I have tought about it. We haven seen Akisame fight, but his opponents were not up to his skill level and he defeated them quite easily without taking much damage himself.
Matsuena showed some of his abilities, but not that much. Had he had more time during the last chapters, we might have seen more of the final masters battle that surely would have given us some more insight. Unfortunately he had to cute the masters fight and the other disciples' fight for the sake of Kenichi vs Kajima.

From the bit we have seen from Akisame I would say that he has extreme foresight about what his opponent might do next, even several steps in advance, and he has the skills to react accordingly.

 

In a fight between him and Ogata, Akisama clearly has foresight and experience on his side alsong with some insane skills.

Ogata is 11 years his junior, that means he is way less experienced.

 

I'm not sure how their age might play to either side's favour. Usually, when you are talking about profi athletes most quit in ther 30, because their bodies can't keep up with the strain anymore. But then these are super masters who have modified and perfected their bodies (pink muscles etc.), so age might not play any role at all.

 

Ogata has an incredible love for martial and the most extreme drive to perfect drive to perfect his art. I think his chance with this fight is pulling some moves that Akisame does not expect from him, maybe because they are so new and foreign to him. Or something that is so suprising. because it is incredibly recless. I think he might try so combine SeiDou Gouitsu with another new move as his final attack.  Of course, if he does something like that, he might risk his body and sould in the process, but I guess he would be fine with that.

 

I would hapazardly guess that Akisame wins, with extreme injuries or possibly even dies. But I have not compöetely ruled out the possibility that Ogata does the same thing as Hongou and wins against a stronger opponent by some kind of strategy or even pure luck.

 

I think I will have to think a bit more about this fight.

[Combatmaster1o3]

I agree, the only thing we really know about Akisame is that he is a crazy fighter and that he is a pure life-fist.He will never kill and, in his own words, "be prepared to die so that you live". He is not stupid by any means and in the strange honor fight he had with Alexander tells us he is a person of immense skill. Ogata is quick to adapt to a style devoted to kill him and that he is a genius in turning martial arts into a science(That may be why Mikumo and him share so much ideologicly). He certainly is more powerful than Alexander(Using Alexander's creepy meter of course) but I don't think he is as powerful as Hongo(without Sie-Dou combine, with it he poses a severe threat but nothing to the level of legendary's or anything. I feel he does not come close to Mikumo.) This will be difficult to tell.

[Nacchi]

I agree, the only thing we really know about Akisame is that he is a crazy fighter and that he is a pure life-fist.He will never kill and, in his own words, "be prepared to die so that you live". He is not stupid by any means and in the strange honor fight he had with Alexander tells us he is a person of immense skill. Ogata is quick to adapt to a style devoted to kill him and that he is a genius in turning martial arts into a science(That may be why Mikumo and him share so much ideologicly). He certainly is more powerful than Alexander(Using Alexander's creepy meter of course) but I don't think he is as powerful as Hongo(without Sie-Dou combine, with it he poses a severe threat but nothing to the level of legendary's or anything. I feel he does not come close to Mikumo.) This will be difficult to tell.

I want to know how much Ogata learned during "the Battle of the Goods". I mean, he was able to remember every single move of the karate styla Kai Midou and Tsutomu Tanaka used only from fighting them. He must have picked up at least a few of the techniquest he saw the Ryouzanpaku masters use. And I'm pretty sure he is going to incorporatem them into his own style. He might even do some special training/research focusing on Ryouzanpaku techniques and how to counter and improve them.

[Combatmaster1o3]

I want to know how much Ogata learned during "the Battle of the Goods". I mean, he was able to remember every single move of the karate styla Kai Midou and Tsutomu Tanaka used only from fighting them. He must have picked up at least a few of the techniquest he saw the Ryouzanpaku masters use. And I'm pretty sure he is going to incorporatem them into his own style. He might even do some special training/research focusing on Ryouzanpaku techniques and how to counter and improve them.

Only if the manga continued.... sigh.

[Berrick]

In a battle with Akisame vs Ogata, we really have not seen Ogata fight much at all. Neither Akisame. However, I have no fantasies of Ogata having far more knowledge in martial arts, since that literally is one of Akisame's features is that he is incredibly knowledgable and a quick learn. He is a genius, tried and true. Ogata is also a passionate genius, and his research for quick methods to gain power pay off with a price *sometimes*.

All masters are knowledgeable, but there knowledge isn't the same across the board. They all have areas where they're more or less knowledgeable than their peers. Masters all differ in acquired knowledge, since they have different styles, training methods, techniques, philosophies, and experiences. Akisame should be more knowledgeable than Ogata in Jiu jitsu and Ogata should be more knowledgeable than Akisame in the multiple martial arts he practices.

 

 

I want to know how much Ogata learned during "the Battle of the Goods". I mean, he was able to remember every single move of the karate styla Kai Midou and Tsutomu Tanaka used only from fighting them. He must have picked up at least a few of the techniquest he saw the Ryouzanpaku masters use. And I'm pretty sure he is going to incorporatem them into his own style. He might even do some special training/research focusing on Ryouzanpaku techniques and how to counter and improve them.

 

That's a good point, Ogata can learn techniques just by observing them. He may eventually become the strongest Yami afterall. 

[Combatmaster1o3]

All masters are knowledgeable, but there knowledge isn't the same across the board. They all have areas where they're more or less knowledgeable than their peers. Masters all differ in acquired knowledge, since they have different styles, training methods, techniques, philosophies, and experiences. Akisame should be more knowledgeable than Ogata in Jiu jitsu and Ogata should be more knowledgeable than Akisame in the multiple martial arts he practices.

 

 

 

That's a good point, Ogata can learn techniques just by observing them. He may eventually become the strongest Yami afterall. 

Its not as simple as you think. Europe had many of the same throws and restraining techniques as Chinese martial arts because their are only so many ways one can restrain other people. And I'm not talking about they had a basic understanding and Jiu jitsu studied it more in depth, no they had the same techniques. Yes, martial arts were different, but not as different as you believe because it all derives from from the same roots and my font is gray srry wtf. So basically my point is that they have a lot of experience and knowledge which generally don't have gaps.

[Berrick]

Its not as simple as you think. Europe had many of the same throws and restraining techniques as Chinese martial arts because their are only so many ways one can restrain other people. And I'm not talking about they had a basic understanding and Jiu jitsu studied it more in depth, no they had the same techniques. Yes, martial arts were different, but not as different as you believe because it all derives from from the same roots and my font is gray srry wtf. So basically my point is that they have a lot of experience and knowledge which generally don't have gaps.

 

 

I think that's where we differ. I believe while there are a lot similar techniques there's also a lot of different ones also.  While there's overlap in a lot of areas, that there is a lot of differences as well. For instance karate has a different type of punch than Wing Chun. Tae Kwondo has different kicks than Muay Thai. They usually have different tactics associated with their techniques and stances as well.  

 

 

That reminds me of what Ma Kensei once said "First seek development, than seek specifics." Masters should of acquired more specifics than disciples since they're masters and they spent more time practicing their martial arts. Things like specific forms of foot work (Boxing step vs Ancient Martial arts step),  Tanimoto's attack that takes advantage of fast reflexes to hit, and  Akisame's no hand throw.  Specifics are one of the things that make martial artists unique martial artists.

 

Besides even if two martial arts are similar, two martial artists would be different, since they have different experiences, strengths and weakness.  As far as Ogata and Akisame are concerned they should be different, at the very least in the striking martial that Ogata has mastered. 

[Combatmaster1o3]

I think that's where we differ. I believe while there are a lot similar techniques there's also a lot of different ones also.  While there's overlap in a lot of areas, that there is a lot of differences as well. For instance karate has a different type of punch than Wing Chun. Tae Kwondo has different kicks than Muay Thai. They usually have different tactics associated with their techniques and stances as well.  

 

 

That reminds me of what Ma Kensei once said "First seek development, than seek specifics." Masters should of acquired more specifics than disciples since they're masters and they spent more time practicing their martial arts. Things like specific forms of foot work (Boxing step vs Ancient Martial arts step),  Tanimoto's attack that takes advantage of fast reflexes to hit, and  Akisame's no hand throw.  Specifics are one of the things that make martial artists unique martial artists.

 

Besides even if two martial arts are similar, two martial artists would be different, since they have different experiences, strengths and weakness.  As far as Ogata and Akisame are concerned they should be different, at the very least in the striking martial that Ogata has mastered. 

We don't differ as much as you think. In many ways the "theory of development" and "theory of the origin" dictate the specializations of martial arts. Theory of Development is the evolutionary portion to the development of martial arts.The Theory of Origin is the aspect of keeping traditions that work and keep them alive. One is change to better suit ones martial art and one is the continuation of suitable traits of that martial art. Kalipaputra was a very effective martial art that kept India's freedom for so long, just like Constantinople. But just like the byzantine empire, it was crushed by forward moving and crazy(maybe not this part) tactics. That is how the martial arts different, but they have a general knowledge of what these 'skill tree's" do and what to look out for. Think of when they found the Fist of Brahman, they knew what his moves were and what to look out for, but were not buddy buddy with his fighting style. 

[Berrick]

I agree that masters usually have a general knowledge of most styles. As far as a fight between is Akisame and Ogata is concerned, I still believe Ogata would win, especially if this fight takes place in the future (after Battle of Gods). 

Edited by ki0, March 02 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Nacchi]

I was reading a bit on the Japanese wikipedia, because I forgot, who voiced Ogata, when I stumbled about this tidbit.
 

一神斎は斎号であり本名は不明。

It seems Issinsai is not his real name, but a honorary name related to buddhism. If I understood that explanation correctly, names ending with 斎 (sai) were mostly given to people who secluded themselves in order to devote themselves their studies - many of them doctors or artists. This name was also often given posthumously or when someone of the emperial family/the nobility donated or contributed to a temple.

 

His real name is unknown.
 
The character itself has meanings like "purification; Buddhist food; room; worship; avoid; alike"

The fist two kanji are "one" (一) and "god; mind; soul" (神)

 

*******

Now where did he get such a name? He certainly seems to have ties to buddhism, as he's carving all those statues. I guess that would make him an artist, maybe. The "living secluded for their studies" parts fits as well. But who gave him his name? Was he once a disciple at a temple? The guidebook doesn't give any explanation about its origin or Ogata's past.

 

I'll see if I can find some more information about those kind of names, because I still don't quite understand how they work. (why is every text related to religion so complicated with words that are impossible to translate?)

 

*******

EDIT: I found another article that says names like Isshinsai were used as regular pennames or nicknames by artists/writers. So dis he choose his name himself after all?   I can see him choosing a pseudonym for his "work" as a martial artist. And maybe he thought his real name didn't fit him anymore once he became a master.

Edited by Nacchi, April 01 2015 - 06:59 PM.