6 replies to this topic

[Berrick]

How long on average would it take for a talented disciple to learn a technique in general? Or to become competent in it's use? Why or why not would it take them so long to learn that technique? The reason I'm asking is because after looking back at the chapters when Kenichi learns Seikuken, I realized he learned it very quickly, at least according to Ryuto.  Not only that he learned Korui Nuki very quickly as well. Then I thought about other disciples and wondered, was it their training that was the biggest factor in their growth or was it their talent?

 

Looking at Ryuto, when he had a normal teacher he seemed to be just normal. Otherwise he wouldn't be fighting normal fighters in a gym, and training with regular (non disciple class) fighters. Takeda also seemed like a normal person until he found a master.  How different would these disciples be if they had normal masters there whole life? Exactly how talented are the disciple classes in the series. Think about what Ogata said to Rimi that she's a 1 in 1000 talent. Where would that put the rest of the disciples as far as talent is concerned?

 

Also in what areas of fighting, specifically, are they most talented in?

Edited by ki0, October 16 2016 - 04:19 PM.

[WarBandit]

I would say that without access to the tutelage of a master, just a normal talented person would probably be a very accomplished Olympic level athletes in whatever style that they use. For example, before Ryuto met Ogata, he was clearly strong, but he just knew that he wasn't getting to the level that he felt he should be at on his own. He knew that there was something more he could accomplish.

So probably the sort you don't wanna mess with on the street, but just unable to get into that superhuman range.

I believe everyone in Yomi for example is naturally gifted. We know for a clearly stated fact that Hermit, Rimi, Chikage and Ryuto are.

Edited by WarBandit, October 17 2016 - 02:05 PM.

[Berrick]

So it was mostly the training that got them to the level their at, in your opinion? They have masters that tailor their training method around bringing out their unique potentials, which causes their growth to increase a lot. 

[WarBandit]

I think only a small amount of rare people can self train and end up becoming a powerful master. Though crazy people like Siegfried are the odd exceptions. Having a teacher definitely helps. For example, Takeda never would have learned practical boxing if he never met James.

[citizen_lion]

Late to this thread, but I wrote a short essay on the role of talent and training in the "Flaws of HSDK" thread, which would be relevant to this thread as well.

 

I think without the right master, at best the Yomi would get to Olympic class, and maybe not even the very best of that class. With extreme amount of luck and trial and error, some of these "unguided" Yomi would have become Yomi-class, superhumans, but the chance that they become full-on masters would be minuscule.

 

Why? Because there are so many different dimensions that affect martial arts and sport performance. Being talented at one thing, or a few things, do not mean you are talented at all of them. And also some of these factors oppose one another, so without knowing how to train, you will just and up flipflopping between very tough or very fast, or very high burst strength versus endurance, or over-rely on striking when your strength is actually ground work, or over-rely on acrobatics against a tough opponent specialized in ground work...

 

And then there's the tenacity, knowledge, and wisdom, which come from generations of experience and a lot of scientific research. If a disciple spend all her time becoming a scholar too, then that is time that could be spent training if the training was guided...

 

And trial and error and self-research can be dangerous without a great amount of maturity, something that may not come naturally to people with great talent... Being too impatient in training your striking or your bone density, and you would get a permanent injury that would literally never heal. E.g. A failed handstand that twists your arm socket backward so much that it rips the cartilage cannot be healed naturally, and will only begin to recover with surgery, and even then that recovery would take a long time...

 

So many things can go wrong, so many different factors, unless a person is talented in literally everything (including maturity), that person has a very low chance of going very far.

[Berrick]

It seems that once one becomes a High Disciple class fighter or an expert class fighter one has the potential to become a master on their on their own through training and research, considering Tanaka's example. Kenichi said at one time "Recently I feel like I'm starting to understand the fundamentals of Martial Arts..." Miu said that "Kenichi has already rolled of the cliff to masterdom" and Akisame said that kenichi was in the most vulnerable state just, the same state as Tanaka. 

[Berrick]

Late to this thread, but I wrote a short essay on the role of talent and training in the "Flaws of HSDK" thread, which would be relevant to this thread as well.

 

I think without the right master, at best the Yomi would get to Olympic class, and maybe not even the very best of that class. With extreme amount of luck and trial and error, some of these "unguided" Yomi would have become Yomi-class, superhumans, but the chance that they become full-on masters would be minuscule.

 

Why? Because there are so many different dimensions that affect martial arts and sport performance. Being talented at one thing, or a few things, do not mean you are talented at all of them. And also some of these factors oppose one another, so without knowing how to train, you will just and up flipflopping between very tough or very fast, or very high burst strength versus endurance, or over-rely on striking when your strength is actually ground work, or over-rely on acrobatics against a tough opponent specialized in ground work...

 

And then there's the tenacity, knowledge, and wisdom, which come from generations of experience and a lot of scientific research. If a disciple spend all her time becoming a scholar too, then that is time that could be spent training if the training was guided...

 

And trial and error and self-research can be dangerous without a great amount of maturity, something that may not come naturally to people with great talent... Being too impatient in training your striking or your bone density, and you would get a permanent injury that would literally never heal. E.g. A failed handstand that twists your arm socket backward so much that it rips the cartilage cannot be healed naturally, and will only begin to recover with surgery, and even then that recovery would take a long time...

 

So many things can go wrong, so many different factors, unless a person is talented in literally everything (including maturity), that person has a very low chance of going very far.

I think I'm starting to get what your saying. What do you think about Siegfried? What about him gave him the ability to teach himself martial arts? Siegfried is talented, but he doesn't seem to be talented in everything. I don't understand how he could learn so quickly by himself.

Edited by Berrick, September 28 2018 - 02:20 PM.