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Flaws of HSDK


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Mister Perfection

Posted August 20 2016 - 05:01 PM

I've read Kenichi again and I notice somethings seem to be a little wrong or off.

Kenichi vs Shou Kano

This fight made me wonder why didn't Syun save Shou for the final person instead of Kajima. Kenichi was completely outclassed in everyway. The only way he stood a chance is when he fought him unconscious. In the beginning Kenichi gets hit by Shou 3 times and almost dies, he himself admits the chainmail saved him from dying. After that Kenichi gets hit by Shou twice with no chainmail and doesn't die? This confused me so much. Either way I'm glad Kenichi won, fighting over Miu is simply dumb. Shou died for nothing it was sad to lose him. He died over a girl that didn't even love him.

Mikumo's Strength

This is something that made martial arts seem like a joke. Her Martial Art is only 100% skill and no strength. How does she flip her opponents? How did she killed Ki Kagero (I believe that was his name)? At first I thought it was like Akisames ki flipping thing but don't you need some level of strength to control ki, since Kenichi vs Odin first fight Kenichi couldn't stop Odin's ki and has never fought anyone with ki since his opponents before Odin couldn't unlock it. Other than that I can't understand her strength it's weird beyond belief.

Sei superior to Dou

If I remember correctly the Kenichi Wikipedia has shown Hayato, Oganoauke, Jenazad, Mikumo, and Saiga all being Sei. They are all Advanced Grand Masters and Legendary Masters. There is not one Hayato level Dou Master. Why is that? Is Sei really the superior ki? Sakaki and Apachai are Dou but are not even Advanced Grand Master (They are Grand Masters).

Ogata Beating Cyril and Agaard

Even though Ogata was not damaged and he used Sei Dou Goui and Cyril and Agaard were Ogata should not have been able to take them both on that easily. That would make Oagata stronger than Jenazad which is not true (Even though Jenazad didn't want t to fight)

Mikumo setting up Jenazad

After Jenazad died Ogata asked Mikumo if someone suggested a plan to Jenezad to kidnap Miu. Mikumo says that the person wanted Jenezad to be destroyed by Hayato. We all know she is the one who told him but as old as Jenezad is how did he even fall for this. He knows Furinji gives him a challenge why risk dying for a disciple you"ll train then kill? Why did Mikumo do this? That was so messed up. Jenazad was a good evil character. He really remind me of a demon. Why kill him?

Tanaka vs Ogata

This fight made me so sad. I wanted to see Tanaka become a Grand Master. Did Tanaka really wanted to die? Why does Syun kill off all the characters I like ( except senzui bean senzui) .

Kenichi's "Girl Principle"

We all know Kenichi doesn't fight girls but why when he fought Miu he used everything he could to get her back? Does Kenichi like Miu that much he would throw away his "Girl Principle" to save her? He doesn't fight Kisara, barely fights Raichi, and denied fighting Rachael but fights Miu. He could of just asked Sakaki to knock her out but know he wanted to fight her.


Kenichi is great and all but some things make me not like the series. I feel it is underrated and if the anime continued it will become even more popular.

makenker

Posted August 27 2016 - 03:56 PM

Shou really should have been Kenichi's final opponent



ki0

Posted September 08 2016 - 06:02 PM

Kenichi vs Sho

 

While Kenichi vs Sho being the final fight would have been great, I'm fine with him not being the final opponent too. I think the author wanted to show that Sho wasn't the perfect fighter and that he still has much to learn, so did Kenichi. They both had a long way to go. Both Kenichi and Sho were mistaken about why the opposing philosophies (Katsujinken and Satsujinken respectively) couldn't reach the height of martial prowess. Sho appeared to be the perfect fighter, within the disciples class at that time, but he wasn't. Each of the Yomi fought after fighting Sho required Kenichi to learn something new or at least help him to learn something different. For instance, Boris taught kenichi that the difference in strength will never remain the same, depending on the circumstances a weaker opponent could defeat someone stronger then him. Hence what Akisame say about strength not being power and strength doesn't necessarily guaranteeing victory. Also there's Kajima's view, that one needs to experience failure to be successful, which Sho never did fail, except for at the very end.  

 

 

Mikumo's Strength

 

I agree here. It should been 90% or 99% skill and 10% or 1% strength used. A 100% skill makes no sense.

 

 

Sei superior to Dou

 

It honestly does seem that Sei types are superior to Dou types on average. 

 

 

Ogata Beating Cyril and Agaard 

 

What's wrong with Ogata beating both Cyril and Agaard so quickly. Not only were they injured, Ogata who was a grandmaster used Sei Dou Goui so it would make sense if the gains from it would be higher then disciple class. Jenezad got weaker over time as well. 



WarBandit

Posted September 29 2016 - 05:55 AM

The Senzui reveal. He came absolutely out of nowhere. It was almost as if the writer just made the character of on the Fly. 20 or so chapters is not good enough for someone who is supposedly the main villain is so connected to the background of Saiga.

And speaking of him, it was left ambiguous for far too long if it was really Saiga who killed his wife or not. We were never specifically told for sure. Every time you start the flashback, we only saw a shadow of him.
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I completely agree with Kenichi not being ready for Sho. Even ignoring the fact that he was extremely damaged from his earlier fights and hadn't had time to get over his injuries, Sho was clearly faster and more skilled. I actually think it would have been a better idea if the tournament ended right before their fight with the destruction of the island making them postpone their battle.

I don't think Mikumo always always uses 100% skill and 0% strength. It's reasonable to assume that she is also just as much of a master in normal forms of jujitsu as well as her own personal style.

Nothing implies Sei is superior to Dou. It all depends on the user.

Ogata didn't defeat Cyril or Agaard. It seems like people misinterpret those scenes. Just because he gained the upper hand against them, does not mean they are defeated. I think we can all remember multiple times in the series were somebody was getting over on someone, and yet they still lost. Also, both Agaard and Cyril were shown to be fine, later. I do not consider that a loss.

Jenazad is the one character who could not be imprisoned or reasoned with, and had very little sense of honor to extend to other martial artist. That's the exact reason why he couldn't be defeated by a Katsujinken fighter for the purposes of the story.

Tanaka was meant to be a tragic character. The show Kenichi what might happen if he ever loses everything that's important to him.

I'm a male and I find Kenichi's rule on not fighting females to be unintentionally sexist. There's no good reason for why he refuses to fight against females. "Just because" is not acceptable to me. To treat someone differently than another person based on their gender, is sexist whether it's intended to be that way or not. It's probably due to how he was raised by his parents.

Edited by WarBandit, September 29 2016 - 05:58 AM.


citizen_lion

Posted October 04 2016 - 01:56 AM

It has been a long while! I'm so glad to see that the HSDKfans are still here :D

 

Some of the points in this thread I want to respond to

 

Kenichi vs. Shou: I actually think this is quite plausible. Kenichi has a chronic tendency to underestimate himself, while Shou seems to have a tendency to overestimate himself. When Kenichi says "he would have died" (he says this a lot), that is from his own point of view, and not necessarily a correct assessment. If Akisame said that, now that would have been different. Kenichi has one thing above and beyond all other disciples, crazy durability. I specifically mean durability too, not just defense (we can argue that Koukin is the best defensive fighter among the disciples and can theoretically tank more than Kenichi since he is crazy good at defensive techniques too, not just having a hard body). Kenichi's entire body is denser than normal, so unless Shou manage to hit vital points, no amount of his "point scoring" would do any good, and when he gets impatient and starts taxing his own body more to get more ineffectual hits in, that gives Kenichi the opportunity to plausibly win. Kenichi dodged a few vital attacks, by a hair and somewhat by luck, but he dodged them nonetheless; from then on Shou actually had no chance of winning unless he was smart and calm (which he was not).

 

Ogata "beating" Cyril and Agaard: this is more like he fended them off. Getting a few quick hits in and stopping your opponents from getting to an objective is nowhere close to beating, as Agaard and Cyril were both shown later with no injuries.

 

100% skill, 0% strength: I think this is just a poetic way to describe something that ultimately everyone involved understands to be a matter of degree. Mikumo is at least as strong as a regular master, since she can leap quite far from building to building (her leaps are about as far as Shigure's). So her style is probably "using as little strength as a master class can possibly limit herself to" as opposed to a literal "no strength at all".

 

Kenichi is sexist: Yes I totally agree. This is one of the few things about Kenichi's character that annoys me, but then again, you could say that it makes him more human because he has flaws but still acts very respectful and civil despite that. Shigure should really beat this trait out of him though.

 

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My take on story weakness:

 

I completely agree about the Senzui and Oganosuke reveal. Those plot points really came out of nowhere and had weak motivation, but in retrospect we know (well, we already suspected) that Matsuena-san was forced to rush the manga to the end, so he probably went for a plan B story.

 

You could say that Senzui made some sense if developed more, but Oganosuke definitely made no sense. If there is a master of the Elder's caliber, then everyone who is anyone in the martial arts world would have at least heard about him. The Elder would have mentioned off-hand, or Jenazad, or Mikumo, one of those old timers would have said something about Oganosuke's existence.


Edited by citizen_lion, October 04 2016 - 02:11 AM.


Ogata

Posted October 06 2016 - 06:46 PM

I agree regarding Oganosuke/Senzui and I will get address it in a minute but let me just say, shame on you, SHAME on all of you who said that Ogata vs Agaard/Rahman was a flaw. It was NOT a flaw, it was simply...flaw...less!!!!

My boy Ogata was about to him Rahman with the bear claw until Agaard intervened and got slammed to the mountains. Also, most masters have survived worse injuries than falling off mountains and getting slammed in to the rock. Also, Ogatas mission was not to kill Agaard/Rahman. His job was to guard Kushinada since her technique seemed like a PURE offense move with no defensive mechanism. If you want to talk about flaws, lets talk about how in that particular chapter, the last page ended with Ogata/Kushinada/Seitaro facing off against Ryo masters. This inconsistency happened when Okamoto/Saiga ended the chapter with wanting to ask Kenichi a question. Yet next chapter they skipped that part as if it never happened....


Now regarding Senzui/Oganosuke, I agree, there should have been a foreshadowing, they foreshadowed Michael and in the masters brawl. Apachai and Mihai acknowledged each other. With Senzui/Oganosuke, there was nothing, Yet they are high level masters. The correct thing was to just have Senzui as the leader of Hachiou blades. Instead of fighting Oganosuke, Elder could have been going around fighting various yami masters on a wild goose chase that led him to the base. This would have been better, we get to see the Elder outsmarted as oppose to facing another legendary master. Problem with Oganosuke is, he diminishes other masters. Kind of like having too many super saiyans made everyone else insignificant.

Senzui as a leader would be perfect, he is a ninja which means he is well versed in weapons and yet he is also an unarmed master. That would make him a duel fighter which gives him a sense of uniqueness. Jenazad was also well versed in weapons but he never actually had the opportunity to show it. So Senzui showed both skills would have worked out.


My thing that bothers me was Michael and how he was handled, we all agree that he had an amazing design and had the potential to be an evil master mind. It was a perfect storm, he was even foreshadowed and he had the same badass aura as Dante from Devil May Cry. Problem is, his weapon was an over the top scythe. When a character has a gimmicky look to him, the author should take a the time to explain his backstory since Hispanic HSDK fans kept saying he is the bootleg version of Hidan which in a way he was but in my opinion he looks less cartoony and way more badass.

I would have liked the author to explain his martial arts style and the training method he went through to gain the ability to wield a scythe. His weapon is uncommon in real life and so there was room to explore..



WarBandit

Posted October 09 2016 - 07:42 PM

I don't really see where everyone's obsession with Michael comes from. As far as I'm concerned he's an even more boring version of Christopher Eclair. I see nothing at all that is interesting about the character in the slightest. He just comes off as the type that likes to kill for the simple sake of it. I've seen people psycho analyzing the character when it's really not all that much that we know about him. It is seems that people project their desires onto a character who's rather one dimensional.

But maybe it's just me. Maybe I don't "get" it.

citizen_lion

Posted October 11 2016 - 01:53 AM

Hehe, i never said Ogata "defeating" Cyril and Agaard was a flaw! I just said what he did was fending off, not defeating, but I do agree that it was indeed flaw... less! :ph34r:

 

Re: Michael: hah! I forgot to rant about him too. Yes, I do think Michael should have been developed a lot more. @WarBandit: the reason why I and Ogata and probably others were interested in Michael is because he is unusual in manga and fiction in general. There is more to him than just "psychopathic killer" though it appears like that at first. Firstly from a Martial Arts perspective his weapon is totally impractical. He chose a scythe basically entirely for style, battle practicality be damned! And he hedges his bets with all kinds of dirty tricks and equipments, breaking all kinds of martial arts codes.

 

Secondly I find his psychology interesting, and the author could at least give a serious attempt to work it out. I'm not rich; most things I have I earned by some seriously hard/smart work. Even physical training to me is an exercise in creativity. I came up with a plethora of methods to train my body density while working/studying, and I wear a tension harness that I fashioned out of silicone wires, and leg weights, etc.

 

Thus I really just can't even imagine the psychology of a rich guy who wear expensive clothings and own TWO priceless artifacts, AND being a murderous loudmouth sociopath who thinks that he's better than everyone else. A truly dangerous, despicable individual, to be sure, but I am curious to understand how such a mind developed... and given HSDK's track record of delivering excellent plausible psychology, I looked forward to it..

 

Another thing is that it's difficult to imagine how someone could get sufficient training to get to grandmaster class AND has no sense of respect. One thing that all masters, and even disciples, in HSDK have in common, a sense of respect for martial arts, even people like Jenazad. Even someone appearing like an insouciant bastard outwardly like Shou is actually just putting out a mask. Tl;dr. all high level practitioners of anything may have different philosophies, beliefs, and motivations, but they all respect similarly skilled people...

 

Mihai doesn't... which makes me think that he's crazy talented, even more talented than Shou, and just got to where he was with money, regular training, and good equipment, and crazy talent alone...


Edited by citizen_lion, October 11 2016 - 02:10 AM.


Ogata

Posted October 14 2016 - 05:33 PM

Citizen_lion:

Hands down this is the best post ever regarding Michael! Before we get to Michael, I am with you regarding Ogata, my comments were towards mister perfection and WarBandit. One claims that Ogata winning was a flaw and the other doesn't consider Ogata defeating Rahman and Agaard. I mean, I just re-read that chapter before making this post and the fight started with Rahman trying to ambush Ogata, Ogata dodges and hits Rahman with a combo and then he is ready to hit Rahman with a Bear claw spear hand until Agaard intervenes with a kick which is ANOTHER sneak attack move that Ogata counters. Rahman and Agaards bot attacked Ogata with a cheap shot and both got embarrassed and manhandled against an Ogata. Though I understand why Agaard/Rahman fans being upset, I would be PISSED too if Ogata ended up being on the receiving end but he didn't so HA HA Ogata wins:)


My goodness citizen_lion you MUST write Mihails story because I loved what I read and I want to address few things as well. First thing is, Mihail is nothing like Éclair, Christopher still has control and sense of mercy and honor. Michael does not have that. I agree with everything you said citizen, every character has some sense of honor in HSDK and Miu in the anime said that even bad guys have some goodness in them.

There is a video that was very interesting on youtube, it was a martial artist with a scythe and in the description he said something along the lines of " mastery of a scythe is not simple because the scythe lacks balance so the practioner must develop extra balance" going to Shigures speech regarding "before mastering a weapon, one must master their own body first, otherwise you can never be its true master" now I know I botched her speech but the idea is that a weapon should not be used as a crutch but rather an extension of ones body. With Mihail, his weapon puts the wielder in a significant disadvantage. Speaking from personal experience, I tried using the pitch fork as a way of understanding the movement of Michaels weapon and it was impossible at first!!!

I kept trying to move it and I realized I did not have the wrist flexibility/strength, the ability to use momentum or the leg strength or the hip movement. In order to learn how to use the pitch fork, I had to practice low horse stance and deep lunges, walk around with proper posture and develop flexibility in hips. All of this for just the slashing movement and even then I still don't have the movements down.

This goes to what your saying, his personality is that of a wild and violent person, not the  thinking type like Akisame and yet the nature of his weapon is complex and requires the most time to learn and master and in the path to mastery, he needs to train like a mad man and that type of training usually instills humility and a sense of gratitude. This makes what you said very interesting, he may have been an ungodly talented person to reach the grand master level. Either way it makes you curious how a person with Michaels mentality reaches the level he has reached.

Regarding the loud mouth sociopath, even Mildred was pissed when he was interfering with her match against Shigure by mentioning that he has Kenichi/Miu hostage. Though it was interesting how Seitaro teased him with "his getting away Michael, are you sure your ok with that" regarding Kenichis singing/dancing to throw him off. Based on the limited interaction, it seems like Mildred views him as annoying prick while Seitaro views him like a younger brother.

Its crazy but you predicted him loving lavish food before the guide book. I remember how you said he may actually come from a place similar to a beautiful country side with wines and afterwards we got the guide book which claims Gourmet food being his hobby and Foei Gras his favorite food. (expensive)


Now that I think about it, I wonder who his master was and what kind of training methods he went through....



 



citizen_lion

Posted October 15 2016 - 10:40 PM

I do want to write Mihai's story too. But first, to finish off something I started long ago. Jenazad's fanfic! https://www.dropbox....t_v1.0.pdf?dl=0

 

In this fic I placed Jenazad's ability as below the likes of Oganosuke, so not quite at the Elder's level (the Elder did not use his final technique here, but finished the fight with his semi-final technique), but there was also a wildcard that could make Jenazad the same level as the Elder, his use of weapons. Unlike Seitaro or even Oganosuke, Jenazad's silat weapons would almost certainly be poisoned to an extreme lethality, so even a nick from them would end fights.


Edited by citizen_lion, October 15 2016 - 10:44 PM.


Mister Perfection

Posted October 16 2016 - 05:33 PM

Wow... didn't think i would get this much post because Kenichi ended and i guess the forum ended with it.

 

Kenichi and Sho fight was wasted potential if you ask me. Kenichi was about to take down the leader but not the Kokin? The guy literally elbowed him and he nearly died, but he was able to land fatal blows on Sho Kano. I understand the other YOMI members get stronger over time but Kano Sho was the YAMI inheritor for a reason he had the blood of a prodigy race. You are telling me some teenager with no talent and gets magical power ups from time to time beats him?(I forgot to add Kenichi's no talent for martial arts BS). Kenichi himself admits he could not have survived without his chainmail.

 

 

Now Ogata did not fended them off. His bear hand was going to injure Rahman a great deal. (Bonus question what happened to Sogetsu?)

 

I'm surprised no one has any theories on Mikumo's martial art. 

 

I do not like Senzui (He is Sho but older. Fighting over the woman he loved) but i do enjoy Oganosuke and Jenezad they are the ideal villains of the series IMO.

 

 

I wanted Elder to fight Jenezad ,if he anything Jenezad and Oganosuke should rule with an iron fist.

 

Kenichi isn't sexist, he just goes by "If it isn't Miu i won't go all out" type of rule. 

 

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WarBandit

Posted October 17 2016 - 02:23 PM

I firmly stand by the idea that while talented, with superior genetics, insane speed and versatility, Sho was not that physically durable. I know Kenichi packs a major punch, but I just can't believe that while as injured as he was, he could do so much damage to Sho, who was fresh.

Let me get in depth: Kenichi took so much damage against the Chinese team that he could barely move, and had to rely on a reflexive technique to win. Just the very next day or so, he gets "training" from the Elder and is even more worn out. I'd be generous to say that he was even at 30% of his usual.

Then Sho gets him right off the bat, sending him flying like 50+ feet back, the hit almost looking fatal:

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historys-strongest-disciple-kenichi-556547.jpg

Even aside from the general consensus that Sho should have been saved for later, Kenichi was plain too best up to do a fight like that. We all know that he's a durability and a stem in a monster. But we all still know that he has limits.

Also, I do not accept Sho using Roar as One as an excuse as to why his body deteriorated enough for him to lose. Ryuto had RoA on full boast for well over a chapter. Sho used it in short bursts for very small periods of time, so I don't believe his body could have broken down nearly enough to where he was telling apart.

End of story, that fight shouldn't have happened the way it did. Sho being not as tanky as others is how I will always justify that. And besides, it fits with his theme. Birds are fast, agile and deadly but clip a wing and they're done.

Edited by WarBandit, October 17 2016 - 02:28 PM.


Mister Perfection

Posted November 05 2016 - 09:06 AM

I firmly stand by the idea that while talented, with superior genetics, insane speed and versatility, Sho was not that physically durable. I know Kenichi packs a major punch, but I just can't believe that while as injured as he was, he could do so much damage to Sho, who was fresh.

Let me get in depth: Kenichi took so much damage against the Chinese team that he could barely move, and had to rely on a reflexive technique to win. Just the very next day or so, he gets "training" from the Elder and is even more worn out. I'd be generous to say that he was even at 30% of his usual.

Then Sho gets him right off the bat, sending him flying like 50+ feet back, the hit almost looking fatal:

98oMFtA.jpg

historys-strongest-disciple-kenichi-556547.jpg

Even aside from the general consensus that Sho should have been saved for later, Kenichi was plain too best up to do a fight like that. We all know that he's a durability and a stem in a monster. But we all still know that he has limits.

Also, I do not accept Sho using Roar as One as an excuse as to why his body deteriorated enough for him to lose. Ryuto had RoA on full boast for well over a chapter. Sho used it in short bursts for very small periods of time, so I don't believe his body could have broken down nearly enough to where he was telling apart.

End of story, that fight shouldn't have happened the way it did. Sho being not as tanky as others is how I will always justify that. And besides, it fits with his theme. Birds are fast, agile and deadly but clip a wing and they're done.




Do you agree that Sho should of won? I do agree with what you ate saying about Sho being strong and agile but lacking in defense by a lot. I mean no one could really touch him so i bet he doesn't train his defense as much. He should be durable though since your output should be the same as your input. If you are a wall buster your durability should be wall level unless you can regenerate at high levels.

citizen_lion

Posted November 07 2016 - 04:51 AM

Not necessarily, "wall buster means wall durability" can be a logical fallacy. A lot of real life martial artists are brick busters, many layers of bricks, in fact. But this just means their *fists* are dense enough to break bricks. The rest of their body most likely isn't anywhere nearly as dense. Also human body durability can be temporarily increased with certain muscle tension technique, but this also does not mean the body is that much denser than normal without prep. Similarly, brick breaking or wall breaking can also be a function of technique, knowing how to channel power into a small point hitting a weak point in the wall for example.

 

Wait, Jenazad did show Hongo this very bit of logic, by breaking his arm easily from the side, while commenting that from the front Hongo's fist is extremely hard.

 

Personally I think Kenichi is special (without him knowing it at all, because this specialty is gained through training, not genetics) is by having a thoroughly denser than average body and natural defensive reflexes, which makes him much harder to damage than even the average yomi. Nothing short of hitting the head, nose ridge, solar plexus, etc. will bring him down (in fact Kokin did kill kenichi by hitting him correctly). Hitting his chest or center of mass like Sho did will at best punch in a cm or two, not enough to kill.

 

Kenichi is notoriously bad at judging his own health and strength. He will routinely say that he might die, and that doesn't mean much.

 

Another thing that Kenichi is special in is having truly loving masters who are his teammates and also happen to be miracle doctors. This explains how he heals so fast between battle


Edited by citizen_lion, November 07 2016 - 04:56 AM.


Mister Perfection

Posted November 12 2016 - 09:12 AM

Not necessarily, "wall buster means wall durability" can be a logical fallacy. A lot of real life martial artists are brick busters, many layers of bricks, in fact. But this just means their *fists* are dense enough to break bricks. The rest of their body most likely isn't anywhere nearly as dense. Also human body durability can be temporarily increased with certain muscle tension technique, but this also does not mean the body is that much denser than normal without prep. Similarly, brick breaking or wall breaking can also be a function of technique, knowing how to channel power into a small point hitting a weak point in the wall for example.

Wait, Jenazad did show Hongo this very bit of logic, by breaking his arm easily from the side, while commenting that from the front Hongo's fist is extremely hard.

Personally I think Kenichi is special (without him knowing it at all, because this specialty is gained through training, not genetics) is by having a thoroughly denser than average body and natural defensive reflexes, which makes him much harder to damage than even the average yomi. Nothing short of hitting the head, nose ridge, solar plexus, etc. will bring him down (in fact Kokin did kill kenichi by hitting him correctly). Hitting his chest or center of mass like Sho did will at best punch in a cm or two, not enough to kill.

Kenichi is notoriously bad at judging his own health and strength. He will routinely say that he might die, and that doesn't mean much.

Another thing that Kenichi is special in is having truly loving masters who are his teammates and also happen to be miracle doctors. This explains how he heals so fast between battle


Well you are right but people like Sakaki and Apachai just break down walls like paper.

Jenezad did say a karate mans fist could not be broken but the wrist is very brittle.

About Kenichi being special in what not, he still has no talent. People like Berserker and Chikage have insane talent levels and train hard. I can't see Kenichi going above them because of this.They will always be above Kenichi (while they are training in martial arts that is. If they stop and be lazy Kenichi could catch up) It's like players who are P2P vs F2P. Genetics play a good role in life. They show who are the ones fit for a certain activity or job.

WarBandit

Posted November 12 2016 - 01:42 PM

Well you are right but people like Sakaki and Apachai just break down walls like paper.

Jenezad did say a karate mans fist could not be broken but the wrist is very brittle.

About Kenichi being special in what not, he still has no talent. People like Berserker and Chikage have insane talent levels and train hard. I can't see Kenichi going above them because of this.They will always be above Kenichi (while they are training in martial arts that is. If they stop and be lazy Kenichi could catch up) It's like players who are P2P vs F2P. Genetics play a good role in life. They show who are the ones fit for a certain activity or job.


I just have to say, the amount of walls that amount of walls in HSDK that masters break through would make it seem like they were all trainer by the Kool Aid Man.

Also I wouldn't be sure about Berserker. I think he is an example of talent that might not ever be fully realized, just because I don't think his motivation is strong enough. He's pretty much only ever seeking to sate boredom and just doesn't seem to have the insane conviction others do. Because of his talent and luck, he can do the bare minimum and still accomplish great things, but I think numerous others will always just out-will him in terms of spirit.

If Kenichi ever gets lazy, his rivals will definitely leave him behind because he compensates lack of natural ability with drive and ridiculous hard work. And at times, even all that work sometimes just isn't enough.

citizen_lion

Posted November 21 2016 - 04:51 PM

I think for this analysis we need to break "martial arts talents" down to two categories of talent. I have considerable real life experience researching and trying many training methods out successfully so I can give a bit of analysis, though if we have a real medical doctor in our midst, our happy band of martial arts / manga enthusiasts will certainly appreciate the further knowledge!

 

The two categories of "martial arts talents", from my point of view, are:

 

1) Biological hard caps that can't be improve much with training: height and muscle mass, fat mass belong to these. That being said in real life a lot of time a person's apparent physical hard caps are deceptive, since diet and upbringing can affect this a lot, like how many families have offspring who grow up a full 1 feet taller than their dad's. But let's normalize the upbringing and diet factor and just say that each person, by age 18, has hit their hard cap on body build. Then you have to work within the build to find the best fighting strategy because you can't change anything about it any more.

 

2) Physiological adaptations that can be improved with training until it reaches a theoretical physical limit that no amount of talent or training can improve further: this is where the depth of wisdom in HSDK come in. Talent in these areas can give you a head start, but once you catch up to a prodigy in these categories with training, the prodigy no longer has any advantage whatsoever since any building up after a certain point is physically not possible or very slow. In fact the people who build up these "improvable factors" with training has the advantage, because they would know all the methods to improve further, while the prodigy took these things for granted.

 

One of these physiological adaptations is bone density, which can be improved in real life until it is 4 times the human average. But going even deeper, bone *durability* across the entire body, from all angles of impact, can be improved. In real life I am an unassuming, gentle man of average build and 5'6'', but I have built up enough bone durability to rip apart canned food without a can opener (I just punch the can until it loses structural integrity, then slowly tear the metal apart with my finger tips). And yes, I did all that training over the course of 2 decades without damaging my fingers and wrists, and I am now in my mid 30's. But never mind this random poster who may be lying on the internet, president Theodore Roosevelt once took 2 bullets to his chest (slowed down a bit by a 50 page speech), and went on to finish his speech anyway: http://www.history.c...kept-on-talking You would never guessed that Roosevelt was a sickly weak kid who became strong through training in the forest...

 

Another one is muscle efficiency. I have a friend who hates martial arts and fighting, who doesn't even workout in a gym and just started working out a few years ago because he felt unhealthy in his job, but you would never know that he can do 100+ pushups in one go, 250 each night casually, and does this every single day without feeling tired... He invented a particular training method that I'm trying to replicate since I am good at short term burst strength but terrible at efficiency.

 

So yes, a lot of what HSDK says about things like "white and pink muscles" and "your fist is unbreakable but the rest of you is quite brittle" are fantastic manga plot elements grounded in truth.

 

Another one is innervation, how much of your muscles are consciously controllable in motion. This translates to speed, balance, and agility. Miu, Rimi, Sho, and chikage are probably geniuses at this particular aspect, as their limbs and torso are controllable very finely, allowing them to move quickly and do amazing balancing feats. But even in real life this is something that could be improved with training by forcing yourself to do daily actions with muscles that you are uncomfortable with, over a long time. How far can you push this particular factor? Can Kenichi ever match Sho in acrobatics? Maybe, maybe not, but...

 

It brings me to one last point, some of these factors are actually physically opposing, and to improve in one you must sacrifice another. For example in real life, I have a body builder friend with HUEG muscles, but his range of motion, speed, and agility is low. So if Kenichi has maxed out bone density (in the HSDK physics) and his entire body is say, as dense as reinforced concrete, then it would be very difficult for him to ever achieve Sho's agility. Similarly, if Sho ever tries to improve his glass cannon problem, he would find that he slowly loses the birdlike agility that he took for granted...

 

So the interplaying of so many complex factors in martial arts, and the presence of physical limits that no amount of talent or training can overcome, make the role of talent a lot less important than those with talent often make it out to be (until they realize that they took for granted a relative advantage, not an absolute advantage).


Edited by citizen_lion, November 21 2016 - 04:58 PM.


citizen_lion

Posted November 22 2016 - 01:13 AM

Ah, one very specific factor that are truly and utterly "talent" and you can't train for it at all, is joint flexibility, or even multi-jointedness, which is related to body build. These are things like Ki-kagerou being able to slash backward, or Lugh's finger joints moving like snakes. These kinds of ability cannot be replicated through training, and give those with these particular talent a unique advantage.

 

In real life you can build nerves into almost any muscles in the body even if you weren't born with them, as long as you train enough, but you cannot force your joint to move beyond the range of its socket unless you were born that way, or you had surgery.

 

But those with these talents may end up relying too much on their talents, laxing their training, or perhaps their mental focus / tenacity in fighting ;) For example Ki-kagerou clearly, and utterly lacks tenacity in his training, and has a terribly weak personality. I feel that Ki-kagerou is like a Berserker of the weapon world, he is just TOO talented. Imagine if he has the tenacity of Hongo... he would probably grow to beat Oganosuke with his long reach (probably longest reach of all fighters in the manga) and double jointedness.


Edited by citizen_lion, November 22 2016 - 01:14 AM.



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