Jump to content


Will Ogata eventually be the strongest Yami?


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic
Vanir

Posted December 23 2014 - 03:57 PM

I feel it's only a matter of time before Ogata makes it to the top. Ogata as the mad scientist of Yami has a lot of potential IMO. Through his disciple, who he treats as guinea pigs, he develops new techniques and training methods. With multiple disciples he can learn and develop multiple areas in his own martial arts. 



Ogata

Posted December 25 2014 - 02:41 AM

I love Ogata and so I love your thread and I agree with it 100 percent! Like you said, Ogata is a mad scientist and he seeks power that manifests in a form of martial arts.

What I mean by that is, the likes of Éclair,Mycroft,Tenmon seem to be motivated by money or Ishida and fortunas case would be politics and military power. This ofcourse limits their focus and passion for developing their martial arts and so their focus is now on to their various ventures and therefore their martial arts training is no longer a top priority. There is a reason these guys are regular masters

Then in a second bracket we have the likes regular members of the Execution Blade who LOVE to use their martial arts but they do so because their end goal is fulfilling an agenda BUT...they still love to get things done using their martial arts but their agenda, in Mihails case its to make enough money to buy an island and to kill people, while Mildred would like to have the title of being the leader of the Execution Blade.

Naturally speaking, the likes of Mildred,Mihail and Raki are still more passionate in terms of having their martial arts skills involved but they also have an agenda involved. 

On to the third bracket...

Then we have the likes of Hongo,Agaard,Alexander,Sakaki,Apachai. I feel like these masters only care to master and represent their own respected style and are not really interested in other training styles. Or they might look down on other martial arts that is different from what they have mastered. Example would be Agaard who felt that muay thai is the best.


Now before we make a pit stop to the Legendary bracket, lets look at the 4th bracket aka  Akisame and Kushinada, as well as Kensei Ma,Saiga, Senzui and Jenazad in this bracket. All these characters posses some form of estoric training secrets that keep their body young,strong,stealthy. For example Akisame has his muscle training,Ma has his chi kung mastery,Kushinada and Jenazad are in to youthfulness technique while Saiga and Senzui have furinji or seal techniques that puts them above the likes of Hongo,Agaard,Alexander but they lack the martial art obbession which leads to...

Legendary Master Bracket, We have Hayato and Ogansouke who are OBBESSED with their own arts and they live not for money, not for politics or world domination but rather for taking their mastery to the next level. I mean, it makes sense to not put Oganosuke in charge of the eternal sunset since he doesn't know any better. He is an individual whos main focus is to take his martial arts skills to the next level and his time and focus goes to just that and so he cares more about stronger opponents than spending his time coming up with various schemes. This is why Seitaro was second in command. The likes of Hayato,Oganosuke and Ogata are more about their mastery of their martial arts, they don't seem like the type who could careless about coming up with schemes and plans.

There was a perfect reason Yokio didn't chase after Hayato and that's probably because of the fact that he didn't really care about eternal sunset. He was happy that he had an opponent that allowed him to test his skills and might against and Ogata also didn't care that Berserker and Lugh switched sides. For guys like Hayato,Ogata and Oganasoke, a good fight to test their strength is all that matters.

I feel like this type of mentality+ the right type of training leads to the Legendary master status. Also Hayato and Ogata use various training methods they learned around the world and they seem to try and consistently improve upon it as well!


Edited by Ogata, December 25 2014 - 02:45 AM.


Combatmaster1o3

Posted December 25 2014 - 10:10 AM

I love Ogata and so I love your thread and I agree with it 100 percent! Like you said, Ogata is a mad scientist and he seeks power that manifests in a form of martial arts.

What I mean by that is, the likes of Éclair,Mycroft,Tenmon seem to be motivated by money or Ishida and fortunas case would be politics and military power. This ofcourse limits their focus and passion for developing their martial arts and so their focus is now on to their various ventures and therefore their martial arts training is no longer a top priority. There is a reason these guys are regular masters

Then in a second bracket we have the likes regular members of the Execution Blade who LOVE to use their martial arts but they do so because their end goal is fulfilling an agenda BUT...they still love to get things done using their martial arts but their agenda, in Mihails case its to make enough money to buy an island and to kill people, while Mildred would like to have the title of being the leader of the Execution Blade.

Naturally speaking, the likes of Mildred,Mihail and Raki are still more passionate in terms of having their martial arts skills involved but they also have an agenda involved. 

On to the third bracket...

Then we have the likes of Hongo,Agaard,Alexander,Sakaki,Apachai. I feel like these masters only care to master and represent their own respected style and are not really interested in other training styles. Or they might look down on other martial arts that is different from what they have mastered. Example would be Agaard who felt that muay thai is the best.


Now before we make a pit stop to the Legendary bracket, lets look at the 4th bracket aka  Akisame and Kushinada, as well as Kensei Ma,Saiga, Senzui and Jenazad in this bracket. All these characters posses some form of estoric training secrets that keep their body young,strong,stealthy. For example Akisame has his muscle training,Ma has his chi kung mastery,Kushinada and Jenazad are in to youthfulness technique while Saiga and Senzui have furinji or seal techniques that puts them above the likes of Hongo,Agaard,Alexander but they lack the martial art obbession which leads to...

Legendary Master Bracket, We have Hayato and Ogansouke who are OBBESSED with their own arts and they live not for money, not for politics or world domination but rather for taking their mastery to the next level. I mean, it makes sense to not put Oganosuke in charge of the eternal sunset since he doesn't know any better. He is an individual whos main focus is to take his martial arts skills to the next level and his time and focus goes to just that and so he cares more about stronger opponents than spending his time coming up with various schemes. This is why Seitaro was second in command. The likes of Hayato,Oganosuke and Ogata are more about their mastery of their martial arts, they don't seem like the type who could careless about coming up with schemes and plans.

There was a perfect reason Yokio didn't chase after Hayato and that's probably because of the fact that he didn't really care about eternal sunset. He was happy that he had an opponent that allowed him to test his skills and might against and Ogata also didn't care that Berserker and Lugh switched sides. For guys like Hayato,Ogata and Oganasoke, a good fight to test their strength is all that matters.

I feel like this type of mentality+ the right type of training leads to the Legendary master status. Also Hayato and Ogata use various training methods they learned around the world and they seem to try and consistently improve upon it as well!

This is pretty sound, I just think you should merge the two legendaries.



Ogata

Posted December 25 2014 - 02:39 PM

Merge which two legendries?


 



Combatmaster1o3

Posted December 27 2014 - 11:22 PM

"Now before we make a pit stop to the Legendary bracket, lets look at the 4th bracket aka  Akisame and Kushinada, as well as Kensei Ma,Saiga, Senzui and Jenazad in this bracket. All these characters posses some form of estoric training secrets that keep their body young,strong,stealthy. For example Akisame has his muscle training,Ma has his chi kung mastery,Kushinada and Jenazad are in to youthfulness technique while Saiga and Senzui have furinji or seal techniques that puts them above the likes of Hongo,Agaard,Alexander but they lack the martial art obbession which leads to...


Legendary Master Bracket, We have Hayato and Ogansouke who are OBBESSED with their own arts and they live not for money, not for politics or world domination but rather for taking their mastery to the next level. I mean, it makes sense to not put Oganosuke in charge of the eternal sunset since he doesn't know any better. He is an individual whos main focus is to take his martial arts skills to the next level and his time and focus goes to just that and so he cares more about stronger opponents than spending his time coming up with various schemes. This is why Seitaro was second in command. The likes of Hayato,Oganosuke and Ogata are more about their mastery of their martial arts, they don't seem like the type who could careless about coming up with schemes and plans.



There was a perfect reason Yokio didn't chase after Hayato and that's probably because of the fact that he didn't really care about eternal sunset. He was happy that he had an opponent that allowed him to test his skills and might against and Ogata also didn't care that Berserker and Lugh switched sides. For guys like Hayato,Ogata and Oganasoke, a good fight to test their strength is all that matters."



Ogata

Posted December 28 2014 - 12:48 AM

Oh I see, You meant that Saiga,Senzui,Kushinada should also be in the same bracket as...Hayato/Yokiou. The answer is no, if the author considers Hayato and Oganosuke as two legendary figures then that's what they are. Saiga himself said that Hayato is still his superior and this was after Saiga barely beat Senzui. So obviously Hayato is above the likes of Kushinada,Senzui and Saiga.

Also, people would bring Jenazad as legendary but I believe that fight was a long time ago and current storyline Hayato is much much stronger than Jenazad while equal in strength with Yokiou-sama!



Vanir

Posted January 01 2015 - 03:03 PM

Now that I think about it, Ogata might search for new disciples now that he lost Ryuto and Rimi. Anyway its like Ogata and Sho said:

 

 

Ogata:  "It doesn't matter what world where in, it always those that are willing to soil their hands that eventually go far sir Rahman!"

 

Sho: "Listen ant the essence of martial arts is emotionless! How can you create fabulous moves if you have emotions?! If you have feelings how can you use those moves? The essence of martial arts lies in the "empty heart"!"

 

"Kensei tried his own creation (SeiDou Goui) on the body of his disciple! Athough he knew the danger, he sacrificed his disciple in order to develop this new technique"

 

http://www.mangapand...-kenichi/578/13,

http://www.mangapand...hapter-260.html,

http://www.mangapand...hapter-260.html

 

Although Sho said that, it appears only Ogata takes this philosophy to heart, within Yami. This is Ogata's unique path to power. If everything goes well, Ogata will develop strong techniques and training methods, through his disciples, to further his own martial arts. It's his fast track to success, but still I find it strange that Katsujinken can mirror his success without sacrifice.

 

For instance, how did Akiisame create his pink muscle training program? Also how did the Elder create his 108 special techniques? Maybe Satsujinken isn't superior to Katsujinken afterall...


Edited by ki0, January 01 2015 - 03:05 PM.


Combatmaster1o3

Posted January 02 2015 - 12:26 PM

Now that I think about it, Ogata might search for new disciples now that he lost Ryuto and Rimi. Anyway its like Ogata and Sho said:

 

 

Ogata:  "It doesn't matter what world where in, it always those that are willing to soil their hands that eventually go far sir Rahman!"

 

Sho: "Listen ant the essence of martial arts is emotionless! How can you create fabulous moves if you have emotions?! If you have feelings how can you use those moves? The essence of martial arts lies in the "empty heart"!"

 

"Kensei tried his own creation (SeiDou Goui) on the body of his disciple! Athough he knew the danger, he sacrificed his disciple in order to develop this new technique"

 

http://www.mangapand...-kenichi/578/13,

http://www.mangapand...hapter-260.html,

http://www.mangapand...hapter-260.html

 

Although Sho said that, it appears only Ogata takes this philosophy to heart, within Yami. This is Ogata's unique path to power. If everything goes well, Ogata will develop strong techniques and training methods, through his disciples, to further his own martial arts. It's his fast track to success, but still I find it strange that Katsujinken can mirror his success without sacrifice.

 

For instance, how did Akiisame create his pink muscle training program? Also how did the Elder create his 108 special techniques? Maybe Satsujinken isn't superior to Katsujinken afterall...

Maybe neither Satsujinken or Katsujinken matter, it is the technique which is molded b what the user wants to accomplish. After all martial artists are very self centered individuals right.



citizen_lion

Posted January 08 2015 - 02:30 PM

Now that I think about it, Ogata might search for new disciples now that he lost Ryuto and Rimi. Anyway its like Ogata and Sho said:

 

 

Ogata:  "It doesn't matter what world where in, it always those that are willing to soil their hands that eventually go far sir Rahman!"

 

Sho: "Listen ant the essence of martial arts is emotionless! How can you create fabulous moves if you have emotions?! If you have feelings how can you use those moves? The essence of martial arts lies in the "empty heart"!"

 

"Kensei tried his own creation (SeiDou Goui) on the body of his disciple! Athough he knew the danger, he sacrificed his disciple in order to develop this new technique"

 

http://www.mangapand...-kenichi/578/13,

http://www.mangapand...hapter-260.html,

http://www.mangapand...hapter-260.html

 

Although Sho said that, it appears only Ogata takes this philosophy to heart, within Yami. This is Ogata's unique path to power. If everything goes well, Ogata will develop strong techniques and training methods, through his disciples, to further his own martial arts. It's his fast track to success, but still I find it strange that Katsujinken can mirror his success without sacrifice.

 

For instance, how did Akiisame create his pink muscle training program? Also how did the Elder create his 108 special techniques? Maybe Satsujinken isn't superior to Katsujinken afterall...

 

By experimenting on himself with adequate rest. The human body is a very odd thing. When strength train, if you constantly push your body, you won't improve past a plateau. If you push your body on low intensity for a long time, you also won't improve (or rather you will improve your indurance a lot, but not strength). If you push your body a lot for a few short reps, you will improve, but eventually the body will compensate by using only the strongest muscle you have developed for any tasks related to that body part, which gives you... a plateau. You have to constantly come up with ways to both build up all muscles evenly, yet push them hard, yet allow them to heal, yet also build nerves into them so that you can actually coordinate and control them and not let your body default to only the strongest muscle in the group.

 

Ogata's style of training is fast, but Akisame can probably come up with deeper insights which allow him to catch up on lost time despite progressing slower. This is because when you experiment on yourself, with a deep foundation in science and a respect for the body, you can catch these sort of nuance about injury and plateau faster. Also, everybody's bodies are different, too, so what works for Ryuto may not work for Ogata 100%.

 

Also, I'm sure Akisame and Ma do experiment on Kenichi, just gentler and more gradually. There's no malice involved, really, but just the process of training someone like Kenichi makes them smarter, because they will be able to see the psychology of a person overcoming the limitations of "normal" and so apply that to overcoming their own limits of "superhuman".



Vanir

Posted January 08 2015 - 05:21 PM

Nice explanation. I guess Akisame being a knowledgeable doctor and having super cognition makes a big difference. Still, even though Akisame may have deeper insights into certain things, I feel those insights are in a few closely related areas. Ogata likely has insight into areas Akisame doesn't because he studies other things and takes more risk. By pushing the envelope and using harsh training methods, Ogata can acquire "forbidden" knowledge that otherwise be very hard to gain. 


Edited by ki0, January 08 2015 - 05:23 PM.


Ogata

Posted January 09 2015 - 01:57 AM

One of the advantage Ogata posses in this situation is the fact that he is a physical culturist in a sense.

What I mean is, he uses various exercise and training method that are embedded in various martial arts in order to strengthen the bodies of his disciple. For example, the way Ogata climbed the bridge to save Tanimoto is called Mallakhamb which is an Indian pole climbing method that many Indian wrestlers have used in previous generation. Or when he was training Rimi, he had her sprint up like a modern athlete but also worked on her balance by standing on top of that thin pole on one leg alongside her.

Ogata uses both ancient and modern method to build up the bodies of his disciple and he does damn good job. Also he seems to understand nutrition as well! He is always eating food that is grown in nature and doesn't indulge in any unhealthy activity like getting hammered like Sakaki/Sougetsu Ma or commit gluttony like Apachai.

Ogata seems to live a clean lifestyle seeing how he lives in a place with clean air,water that has good food like berries and access to good fish. This was elaborated by elder, when he stated that the air at dark vally helps with recovery and so do food that is grown in healthy soil.


 


Edited by Ogata, January 09 2015 - 02:00 AM.


Mister Perfection

Posted July 17 2016 - 08:00 PM

No he is not. He might reach Saif in 3 years though

WarBandit

Posted November 01 2016 - 01:10 AM

Now that I think about it, Ogata might search for new disciples now that he lost Ryuto and Rimi. Anyway its like Ogata and Sho said:


Ogata: "It doesn't matter what world where in, it always those that are willing to soil their hands that eventually go far sir Rahman!"

Sho: "Listen ant the essence of martial arts is emotionless! How can you create fabulous moves if you have emotions?! If you have feelings how can you use those moves? The essence of martial arts lies in the "empty heart"!"

"Kensei tried his own creation (SeiDou Goui) on the body of his disciple! Athough he knew the danger, he sacrificed his disciple in order to develop this new technique"

http://www.mangapand...-kenichi/578/13,
http://www.mangapand...hapter-260.html,
http://www.mangapand...hapter-260.html

Although Sho said that, it appears only Ogata takes this philosophy to heart, within Yami. This is Ogata's unique path to power. If everything goes well, Ogata will develop strong techniques and training methods, through his disciples, to further his own martial arts. It's his fast track to success, but still I find it strange that Katsujinken can mirror his success without sacrifice.

For instance, how did Akiisame create his pink muscle training program? Also how did the Elder create his 108 special techniques? Maybe Satsujinken isn't superior to Katsujinken afterall...


I literally say this exact same thing all the time. Just because Ogata develops new methods of training and has the betterment of martial arts in general at the forefront of his mind does not necessarily mean that his training methods are better. Because his record is against him. Look at Ryuto and Rimi. Both failures in different ways, either in terms of their win/loss success, or in how they manage their skills, something their master should be directly responsible for.

Another thing I always say: Ogaga gives his disciples more strength and skill, yes. But he doesn't teach them how to properly use it, and just moves onto someone else when they fail.

It's the exact reason why the Elder waited so long to instruct Miu on how to control her Dou ki. Yes, she could have released it much earlier. But she wasn't ready to control it. Ogata's impatience for results is why what happened to Ryuto and Rimi happened.

Sometimes slow and steady really does work better.

Vanir

Posted April 29 2018 - 09:28 PM

I literally say this exact same thing all the time. Just because Ogata develops new methods of training and has the betterment of martial arts in general at the forefront of his mind does not necessarily mean that his training methods are better. Because his record is against him. Look at Ryuto and Rimi. Both failures in different ways, either in terms of their win/loss success, or in how they manage their skills, something their master should be directly responsible for.

Another thing I always say: Ogaga gives his disciples more strength and skill, yes. But he doesn't teach them how to properly use it, and just moves onto someone else when they fail.

It's the exact reason why the Elder waited so long to instruct Miu on how to control her Dou ki. Yes, she could have released it much earlier. But she wasn't ready to control it. Ogata's impatience for results is why what happened to Ryuto and Rimi happened.

Sometimes slow and steady really does work better.

 

That reminds of what was said here:

 

22.jpg

 

 

Even though Ogata's training can increase his disciple's abilities absurdly fast, I don't think his disciple's will be weak or lacking in potential. Remember Kenichi also grows absurdly fast, yet he has amazing potential. Ogata even thinks his disciples might grow stronger than him one day. 

 

I don't think Ryuto using Sei Dou Goui incorrectly or Rimi losing twice, means the training method isn't great. Ryuto was trained to use Sei Dou Goui so Kensei could see the aftereffect. As for Rimi, she grew even more than Miu did, as Rimi was much weaker than her before she powered up. Rimi became physically stronger than Miu, she became faster and all though she wasn't more skilled, her technique became much better. 

 

Rimi could control her Dou ki very well.



Ogata

Posted May 09 2018 - 11:45 AM

Logging in after 2 years so I could defend my man Ogata!!!!

Ogata's training is wonderful and open minded. He doesn't box himself in one particular style or training philosophy and his commitment is towards reaching the pinnacle of martial arts mastery regardless of the name or style of the art itself. Quality and efficiency is Ogatas Isshinsais vision and drive to truly capture the essence of perfection.


If a boxer comes to him, he doesn't force him to become a ancient martial artist. He will rather integrate his wisdom towards the boxing practioner in order to strengthen that boxers abilities for the sake of formidability and not conformity. That is the beauty of Ogata Isshinsai. 

Regarding his disciple. Last time I checked, Rytuo and Kenichi are 1-1 against each other. Ryuto put a beating on Kenichi the first time and lost the second fight in the anime finale. Can you remind me how well other yomi members have done against Kenichi besides the thai boxer?


Oh and Ryuto finally solved his disability and came out of it stronger than ever with the ability to power up from a disciple to low level master for 1 minute interval. That is damn impressive! Now the manga ended up in a very untimely manner but you could argue that in the end Ryuto was stronger than Kajima and Kenichi. So in the end, Ryuto ended up to be an incredible fighter.


 



Vanir

Posted May 10 2018 - 07:16 PM

Logging in after 2 years so I could defend my man Ogata!!!!
Ogata's training is wonderful and open minded. He doesn't box himself in one particular style or training philosophy and his commitment is towards reaching the pinnacle of martial arts mastery regardless of the name or style of the art itself. Quality and efficiency is Ogatas Isshinsais vision and drive to truly capture the essence of perfection.
If a boxer comes to him, he doesn't force him to become a ancient martial artist. He will rather integrate his wisdom towards the boxing practioner in order to strengthen that boxers abilities for the sake of formidability and not conformity. That is the beauty of Ogata Isshinsai. 
Regarding his disciple. Last time I checked, Rytuo and Kenichi are 1-1 against each other. Ryuto put a beating on Kenichi the first time and lost the second fight in the anime finale. Can you remind me how well other yomi members have done against Kenichi besides the thai boxer?
Oh and Ryuto finally solved his disability and came out of it stronger than ever with the ability to power up from a disciple to low level master for 1 minute interval. That is damn impressive! Now the manga ended up in a very untimely manner but you could argue that in the end Ryuto was stronger than Kajima and Kenichi. So in the end, Ryuto ended up to be an incredible fighter.


Welcome back. I wish the author had him fight a yomi class disciple.

Ogata

Posted May 11 2018 - 12:22 PM

Odd I still cant quote...

But yes I do agree with you 100 percent and funny you mentioned that because that was the main intended point of the Ragnarok. It was assumed that if Kenichi were to not exist, then it would have been Ryuto/Lugh Titans/Ragnarok which belong to Ogata would have gone head to head with Yami/Yomi. This would probably lead in to an internal satsujinken wars. While Ryo masters would probably function as a buffer zone to make sure the war doesn't go public by containing the chaos on the spot.


But came Kenichi who started representing Katsujinken  which led to the union of all Satsujinken fighters and thus we got the series. I am not saying this is 100 percent accurate but the impression is that, any time Kenichi won, Yami had to resort to teaming up with one another and thus they had a common enemy and no longer at each others throats. I say this not because of Ogata/Ragnarok being trained to go against Yami originally but also the fact that later on, the weapons and unarmed units teamed up together despite being separate units who avoid one another.


It is so horrible that the series came to an end because it had so much more potential. Not just Kenichis story but the way the universe of Kenichi has been set up. Like we have the walking dead but I also LOVE the fear of walking dead which takes place in the same universe/world. We could have so many stories that are not kenichi related within the universe of Kenichi. For example, the origin of Ryozanpaku. Adventures of Shio Sakaki. The backstory of Michael and Apachai. Oh and Akisame knows so much stuff, love to know his upbringing and the first time he met James.




 




Author

Rate This

- - - - -

Share This