66 replies to this topic

[Ogata]

Great chapter and Im glad we got to see Kenichi vs Kajima fight without interruption!!!!

Anyway, it  was great to see that Kenichis new technique is based on Shigures training and that it was powerful enough to put Kajima out of commission!!!

This chapter confirmed that Kensei Ma may infact me second strongest Ryo master since Kajima complimented Kenichi saying that he mastered the Yin aspect of Kungfu and that his Yin Kungfu body conditioning is much more superior than his body steel training!!!

Also, in one of the flashbacks, Hayato had Miu train with Kensei Ma who made Miu train in a Bikini. This leads me to believe that after this saga, we may finaly have a saga based on Kensei Mas life back in china and his rival clan as well as meeting his wife and various kungfu rivals/friends.

[Baby Joe]

I don't think Kenichi's technique was able to take out Kajima. Unless I missed a page, it seems he was taken aback by Kajima's techinique. Is there a page missing or did it end with Shigure saying, "His whole body is Shinogidachi"? The chapter ended so abruptly.

 

Anyway, I liked this chapter.

[Ogata]

I don't think Kenichi's technique was able to take out Kajima. Unless I missed a page, it seems he was taken aback by Kajima's techinique. Is there a page missing or did it end with Shigure saying, "His whole body is Shinogidachi"? The chapter ended so abruptly.

 

Anyway, I liked this chapter.

Yeah I noticed that too! I want to say that, Kajima is still in the fight but the thing is, earlier he was bleeding and coughing blood for using a technique that even Senzui forbid him to use. So I am not sure what else Kajima can offer Kenichi and that there are other fights and affairs happening in the island that the author may need to focus his attention on.

I suspect that Kajima will stand up but not to fight Kenichi but rather play narrator to further explain how Saiga and Senzui came together to train him and basicly Kajima will give more insight on Saiga and Senzui while Kenichi,Miu,Shigure and Nijimma listen and watch the two fight.

I think that the author did not do a good job explaining Senzui and Saigas past.So to listen to Kajimas insight and history he shared with Senzui and Saiga should redeem some of their backstories and characters and how they got along after once the Kuremisago war was over.

[Combatmaster1o3]

Yeah I noticed that too! I want to say that, Kajima is still in the fight but the thing is, earlier he was bleeding and coughing blood for using a technique that even Senzui forbid him to use. So I am not sure what else Kajima can offer Kenichi and that there are other fights and affairs happening in the island that the author may need to focus his attention on.
I suspect that Kajima will stand up but not to fight Kenichi but rather play narrator to further explain how Saiga and Senzui came together to train him and basicly Kajima will give more insight on Saiga and Senzui while Kenichi,Miu,Shigure and Nijimma listen and watch the two fight.
I think that the author did not do a good job explaining Senzui and Saigas past.So to listen to Kajimas insight and history he shared with Senzui and Saiga should redeem some of their backstories and characters and how they got along after once the Kuremisago war was over.

Yea, got to agree with you there. If seen this in many tv shows, too many important characters and way too much going on. It's either what you said or if it all is in ONE chapter, by that I mean all events end or at least get some pacing.(sorry on mobile)

Edit: He may die, Kajima I mean. Or at least defeated. Full body Ki explosion is not good and not natural, and is questionable in its ... attacking power. I imagine you won't move quite well or at all. Also how would this work, this can't just be simple Ki intimidation or pressure and has new unknown variables to Ki. A simple burst of Ki, probable not unlike the type that is used to harden the body against physical attacks is good in an attack and would be wonderfull in deago's hands... cept it's not 0.o The part that concerns me is the full body part, really seems ineffective. An extremely dangerous and suicidal block is all it seems like to me. Makes you wonder if there's a counter that masters know, since absolutely NO one uses it.

[woutercox]

I've been thinking about what exactly Kenichi's technique exactly is or does.

This is all speculation of course, but it's the best explanation I could come up with.

 

The only clues I have to go on is the name, the image and the fact that it's called a counter move. The name "Shutou Muzan" seems to translate to "cruel knifehand strike".

 

According to the Wikipedia entry for knifehand strike: "Suitable targets for the knifehand strike include the mastoid muscles of the neck, ..." .

 

From the image we can see that Kenichi is aiming for the neck. So I think that the target for Kenichi's technique is the neck, or the side of the neck. Perhaps Kajima avoided a direct hit.

 

Not sure what would make this technique 'cruel'. Perhaps it also has a paralyzing effect?

The 'arc' Kenichi makes seems to indicate a very high-speed move.

 

Also not sure what would make this move a counter.

 

My best guess:

- with the spiral-like movement of his arms, he tensions his arms and body to prepare for the slash

- the position Kenichi assumes allows him to sidestep or 'slip past' the enemy's attack

- when he has avoided the enemy's attack, he uses the slash to disable the foe by striking at one of his nerve points, in this case somewhere in or near the neck. The slash has Shigure's name on it, the surgical strike at the nerves has Akisame's name on it.

 

Kenichi avoided Kajima's initial attack and succeeded in landing a blow, but apparently had to abort his attack halfway because Kajima's entire body is 'Shinogidachi'. I'm still not quite sure what Shinogidach is or what it does.

 

To me it looks like some sort of suicide move, which is probably why it's forbidden. I suspect a huge explosion of Ki, after which Kajima will be helpless, or worse.

[citizen_lion]

I agree with almost everything woutercox said about Kenichi's attack, and almost everything Combatmaster1o3 said about Kajima's attack.

 

Some additional analysis:

 

Kenichi's attack appear to be a high speed slash that starts with one arm forcing the other arm back, so that when the attack swings out it gets more of the tension from the tendons and so be a bit faster. He then swing his arm over his head to get more velocity through a rotational motion, and then finally he swings his body into the attack for the momentum. This is basically a mix of an overarm sword strike and a judo chop.

 

Kenichi did not stop his attack. It did connect and the force of it knocked a lunging Kajima into a fall. That is quite a force for a chop! BUT Kajima hardened his entire body, so Kenichi's strike would be like chopping one's arm top speed into a wall, and should end up paralyzing Kenichi's arm for a while too.

 

This is what I think Shinogidachi is, a technique to harden one's body beyond natural limits. A parallel in real life is that once you achieved a certain level of muscle control due to training, you can consciously, deliberately tense many muscles (including ones that you normally have little control upon before all the training) until it cramps and fails to move. Hitting or blocking with this sort of unnaturally tough muscles will wrong foot an enemy and make them hit a target that is much tougher than they expect, perhaps even tougher than their fists and feet, which will end up damaging the hitter more than the hittee.

 

Now this is not really ideal because, as Combatmaster1o3 said, it will definitely hamper movements, and disrupt your own nerves and blood flow quite quickly too, especially when you are hardening your whole body.

 

-----

 

By the way though, holy crap. The power levels that these disciples are displaying in this chapter is definitely low master class... and their endurance maybe even in the mid master class already. Kenichi just survive having his head jammed into the ground, cracking the floor in a relatively large crater, with minimal damage!

 

This is the same kind of endurance displayed by mid masters like Li Tenmon (chishouken). This is also similar to how Akisame tanked Alexander's "Mid-winter Thunderbolt" throw (of course that is much more powerful, but the nature of the attack, and the tanking, was the same).

 

Correction:

 

I would say that Kajima has a normal master's power output, and an expert's level defense (due to Shinogidachi), but only a high disciple's speed...

 

... while Kenichi has a mid master's defense, but still a high disciple's attack power and speed.

 

Kenichi's defense is 3 full classes beyond his current overall level, and 1 class above Kajima's attack power. But Kenichi's attack power is also under Kajima's defense, so it evens out. But Kenichi may have an actual advantage here since Kajima is sapping his own health by the seconds now.

[Ogata]

 

 

I would say that Kajima has a normal master's power output, and an expert's level defense (due to Shinogidachi), but only a high disciple's speed...

 

... while Kenichi has a mid master's defense, but still a high disciple's attack power and speed.

 

Kenichi's defense is 3 full classes beyond his current overall level, and 1 class above Kajima's attack power. But Kenichi's attack power is also under Kajima's defense, so it evens out. But Kenichi may have an actual advantage here since Kajima is sapping his own health by the seconds now.

I hate to bring old topics but seeing how powerful Sei-Dou  can be+Kajimas abilities being displayed in this chapter.

I am curios to know if Yomis chance of defeating a weaponless Shigure goes up with these new information???

Also if Shigure were to punch and kick Kajima in his shinogidachi, would she get effected or would she be fine??

I know Kenichi vs Kajima damage looks impressive but then Sei-Dou Ogata took out Rahman/Agaard in a very casualy manner. Like if you were to never read the manga up until last week. You would think that Kenichi and Kajima are stronger than Ogata/Rahman/Agaard because of the effect they are displaying.

 

[Combatmaster1o3]

Also if Shigure were to punch and kick Kajima in his shinogidachi, would she get effected or would she be fine??

I've been wondering about that for some time, what would happen to a master class opponent. I would definetky say ep when Kajima first learned this move his opponent was a master, but then again ALL the masters knew about the effects of mixing sie and dou Ki. Why didn't Ogata? It may be possible that this technique is known, but has a bad rep just like mixing sei and dou Ki. Only the people born with Ki channels may use moves like this, which may explain that people either don't know about it or that most people simply cannot do it.

[Raigou]

This fight really seems to be representing the Sei vs Dou thing Kajima with the fierce and powerful attacks and Kenichi with a well timed counter plus skillful dodges. 

[Combatmaster1o3]

This fight really seems to be representing the Sei vs Dou thing Kajima with the fierce and powerful attacks and Kenichi with a well timed counter plus skillful dodges.

Don't know if shinodachi actually corresponds to dou Ki. We actually don't know what's up with it. My gut tells me it's a lot like a mix of Ki from various forms. The type that shows intentions, aura, and pushing. Probably the type that hardens the body as well. Mixing them together and forming them to make a kind of flinch. Like when sometimes you feel powerless for some reason and can't build your strength, which makes me go out all the way and say that it may be unique to his personality.

[Ogata]

I've been wondering about that for some time, what would happen to a master class opponent. I would definetky say ep when Kajima first learned this move his opponent was a master, but then again ALL the masters knew about the effects of mixing sie and dou Ki. Why didn't Ogata? It may be possible that this technique is known, but has a bad rep just like mixing sei and dou Ki. Only the people born with Ki channels may use moves like this, which may explain that people either don't know about it or that most people simply cannot do it.

Its interesting to hear Kenichi mentions Shigures philosphy towards weapons! It seems like weapon users don't condition their bodies like unarmed fighters would since for Shigure and weapon users. Getting hit=Death and so it seems like they need to rely on armour and their speed/reaction time as oppose to body conditioning which they may feel is usless. Although Saiga an unarmed fighter wears an armour but he ALSO has conditioning his body as well.

Makes me wonder if weapon fighters have done so in case of facing an unarmed master. Although I doubt a guy like Michael has since he took Kensei Mas hit worse than anyone else while agaard shook it off.

This makes me wonder if Shigure would get effected by Kajimas move or if she could overcome by the fact that she has a master body???

[citizen_lion]

I hate to bring old topics but seeing how powerful Sei-Dou  can be+Kajimas abilities being displayed in this chapter.

I am curios to know if Yomis chance of defeating a weaponless Shigure goes up with these new information???

Also if Shigure were to punch and kick Kajima in his shinogidachi, would she get effected or would she be fine??

I know Kenichi vs Kajima damage looks impressive but then Sei-Dou Ogata took out Rahman/Agaard in a very casualy manner. Like if you were to never read the manga up until last week. You would think that Kenichi and Kajima are stronger than Ogata/Rahman/Agaard because of the effect they are displaying.

 

 

I'm too tired today to write long, but let's kick the tire on this analysis! I think we have enough info to come up with some pretty good and logical fight scenarios. So based on previous analysis and current information, on one side we have:

 

Shigure Kousaka - prodigy of all weaponry... without any weapons

 

Hit Strength: low master (high grandmaster with weapons)

Endurance: normal master

Speed: normal master (grandmaster with weapons, since the weapon gives her extra reach)

Finesse and agility: grandmaster (legendary with weapons, since her main training is with weapons, so although she is a part of Ryo and thus benefits from everyone's training wisdom and knowledge, she can't be equally skilled unarmed)

Will (perception ki and intimidation ki): normal master

Distraction power: legendary master (automatically knocks out Kenichi due to nasal blood lost, even though Kenichi wasn't a part of Yomi, but tried to enter the fight anyway to, eh, support his old friend Ryuto)

 

=> Overall classification: high master without weapons, high grandmaster with weapons

 

--------------- Yomi ----------------- I'll just list a few main ones first. All of Yomi are overall "high disciple"

 

Kajima Satomi with Shinogidachi (can stay in the fight for 3  minutes before collapsing)

 

Hit Strength: low master

Endurance: expert

Speed: high disciple

Agility & finesse: high disciple

Will: expert

 

Shou Kanou with Seidou Goui (can stay in the fight for 20 seconds, this is because Shou Kanou has not mastered Seidou Goui to the same level that Ryuto does now, and Ryuto's max range is only 30s)

 

Hit Strength: low master

Endurance: normal disciple

Speed: expert

Agility & finesse: expert

Will: low master

 

Shougo Kitsukawa with Berserker Mode (can stay in the fight indefinitely, but with much lower finesse)

 

Hit Strength: expert

Endurance: expert

Speed: expert

Agility & finesse: normal disciple

Will: high disciple

 

Normal Shougo without Berserker mode (my preferred version for this fight)

 

Hit Strength: expert

Endurance: normal disciple - Berserker is similar to Shou, having low internal body strength due to not being hit very often. In the first fight with Hermit, he was defeated by Hermit in only 4 hits, technically 3 hits, since he only stood until the 4th hit due to adrenaline rush (Berserker mode)

Speed: expert

Agility & finesse: expert

Will: high disciple

 

Ryuto Asamiya with Seidou Goui (30 seconds)

 

Hit Strength: high disciple

Endurance: high disciple

Speed: expert

Agility & finesse: expert

Will: expert

 

Rimi with Seidou Goui (20 seconds)

 

Hit Strength: high disciple

Endurance: normal disciple

Speed: low master (Seidou Rimi with shoes off moves so fast that Miu can hardly see her, and has to rely on superior intuition to predict her movements, and Miu has been shown to dodge a dozen master class strikes head on with just her speed alone, so it stands to reason that Rimi's top speed is definitely in the low master range)

Agility & finesse: expert

Will: normal disciple

 

Tanimoto Natsu (Hermit) with Kyusa (indefinite)

 

Hit Strength: expert normally, low master with Kyusa

Endurance: expert

Speed: high disciple

Agility & finesse: high disciple

Will: high disciple

 

Tirawit Koukin

 

Hit Strength: high disciple to low expert

Endurance: expert

Speed: high disciple

Agility & finesse: high disciple

Will: expert

Edited by citizen_lion, August 16 2014 - 02:24 AM.

[Combatmaster1o3]

Kajima's technique is usefull because it allows any attacks going your way to be turned into no power flops of thrusts or whips. What about techniques with no power? Also can he move in such a state? Originally we thought that while the counter shoulders would be lax and the contradictory movement burst some blood vessels in his eye do to extra blood flowing there. But what's this? I see it started from his limbs and went to his body, but forcing all of his channels open at the same time may result in some death. It might go back to kenichi going ALL out like how he did with Ryuto. On the topic of seidou goui, why can't you simply teach both consepts when they're newer. Kenichi had something like this where he's naturally suited to learn both. So why can't you learn both. Ki types seem to be a way of unlocking potential, teach say Kenichi how to calm down and how to exite himself(as he does this a lot), exactly why can you not have a mixed state. A balanced state.

[citizen_lion]

Kajima's technique is usefull because it allows any attacks going your way to be turned into no power flops of thrusts or whips. What about techniques with no power? Also can he move in such a state? Originally we thought that while the counter shoulders would be lax and the contradictory movement burst some blood vessels in his eye do to extra blood flowing there. But what's this? I see it started from his limbs and went to his body, but forcing all of his channels open at the same time may result in some death. It might go back to kenichi going ALL out like how he did with Ryuto. On the topic of seidou goui, why can't you simply teach both consepts when they're newer. Kenichi had something like this where he's naturally suited to learn both. So why can't you learn both. Ki types seem to be a way of unlocking potential, teach say Kenichi how to calm down and how to exite himself(as he does this a lot), exactly why can you not have a mixed state. A balanced state.

 

Shinogidachi is, as Ken demonstrated, useless against techniques that use no power. Kajima was first thrown into a wall by his own power (and wow at the amount of power he can create), then again but he managed to roll and jumped off the wall. Also I'm not sure if intentional, but the art always shows Kajima throwing big, powerful, fast, but simple moves.

 

So what you say seems consistent with the art. Tensing your body beyond natural safe limits will hamper your range of motion, making your motions simple, although it certainly can be faster, and hit harder.

 

Tensing your entire body and yet forcing it to move is nearly impossible in real life, and the theory of it certainly makes it dangerous and potentially crippling if not fatal. This is probably what Senzui means by "ki channels", basically a highly developed somatic nervous system that can be either by genetics or training, that can force your body to move against the will of the autonomic nervous system, which normally tries to prevent you from hurting yourself. Well, the pressure of your blood (which is heightened by forcing your limbs to move) must go somewhere... to the one place where you simply cannot control your blood flow...

 

Your brain...

 

Note that the concept of tensing your whole body does exist elsewhere in the manga and probably can be done safely in real life too, like the Karate punch that Shou and Hongou used, but that is tensing your whole body then quickly release it in one motion, not tensing your whole body then force that hardened body to move... That is... unnatural.

[Delirium Trigger]

Chinese martial arts are really dominating in this fight, notably Tai Chi (How Kenichi redirects Kajima's technique is pretty much the philosophy of flowing with the opponent as Mr. Lion stated earlier), Bajiquan (Stated earlier when Kenichi commented on how Kajima's elbow strike was like Hakkyokuken) and Ying Kung Fu.(This whole chapter. Nuff said)

 

@citizen_lion, don't you think Natsu's willpower is a little low?

[citizen_lion]

Chinese martial arts are really dominating in this fight, notably Tai Chi (How Kenichi redirects Kajima's technique is pretty much the philosophy of flowing with the opponent as Mr. Lion stated earlier), Bajiquan (Stated earlier when Kenichi commented on how Kajima's elbow strike was like Hakkyokuken) and Ying Kung Fu.(This whole chapter. Nuff said)

 

@citizen_lion, don't you think Natsu's willpower is a little low?

 

high disciple isn't low, actually. This is basically the average of Yomi. These 7 Yomis stand clearly above the rest (I just added Koukin).

 

Hermit has never been known as a ki-based fighter. His technique are powerful because they hit hard and they hit weakpoints of the human body, not because he has to manipulate his own muscles in strange ways or because he has to manipulate the opponent's movements in certain ways.

 

Hermit's style has always been quite similar to Kenichi, keep tanking attacks until you can launch 1 to 3 strong ones that knocks out the opponent. Kenichi's ki is also high disciple, I think, except when using Ryushui Seikuken, which will make him expert class. RS step 3 is basically Kenichi's "sei ki awakening", and so that brought him beyond the norm. If we see Hermit's ki awakening soon too, then he will probably have an expert's ki now.

 

And yes, you are right about this chapter being mostly about Chinese martial arts. I also thought that Kenichi's RS3 poses look quite Taichi like.

[Raigou]

Ms out and it has an extra page(ot should I say mangapanda lacks a page  ) http://readms.com/r/hsdk/579/2496/20

Looks like Kajima won but at what cost...

[Combatmaster1o3]

Sounds a lot like that "madness in heart " really did allow him to win

[citizen_lion]

0.0, did Kajima just punched a hole through Kenichi?!

 

Can this manga ends in death?!

 

Ok I wish that the manga takes a turn for the darker, but ending with Ken dying is a bit much...

 

Let's hope it's just the art.

[Combatmaster1o3]

0.0, did Kajima just punched a hole through Kenichi?!
 
Can this manga ends in death?!
 
Ok I wish that the manga takes a turn for the darker, but ending with Ken dying is a bit much...
 
Let's hope it's just the art.

I thought Kajima kinda did a weird head-but that broke his shoulder.