HSDK Battle 571 Released

Damn dude!

This wasen't even a fight, it felt like Saiga is a pimp that was treating Hongo like a Hoe which is to just keep in check instead of killing him. Since killing Hongo meant that Hongo was a threat to him but no, this felt like a father discipling his child when Saiga said "in the future you will understand"

Oh and James Shiba and Nijimma are a good troll team but yeah, this Manga is picking up again and I have no doubt in my mind that our beloved Scythe Master will make an apearence once again!

Shiba is hilarious.

Damn dude!

This wasen't even a fight, it felt like Saiga is a pimp that was treating Hongo like a Hoe which is to just keep in check instead of killing him. Since killing Hongo meant that Hongo was a threat to him but no, this felt like a father discipling his child when Saiga said "in the future you will understand"

Oh and James Shiba and Nijimma are a good troll team but yeah, this Manga is picking up again and I have no doubt in my mind that our beloved Scythe Master will make an apearence once again!

Nah, actually. The way I see this fight is different. Hongo and Saiga, in terms of actual attributes, are not THAT far apart. But Saiga is a much much smarter fighter. It's not like Saiga moves so fast even when he's not trying that Hongo can't even react and have to stand still.

But Saiga exploited Hongo's care for Nijima and also he does not aim to kill (harder) but only to incapacitate by pressure points. Also Hongo does not have a strong motivation to kill in this fight either.

Case in point, Shiba was able to outrun him for a while too, so Saiga's speed isn't that far beyond grandmaster scale.

Also so far in HSDK, the author had avoided the "sorting algorithm of evil" (villains are introduced in order of power) cliche, so this is quite normal. Saiga isn't actually that much stronger than Hongo, but he fights much smarter.

Nah, actually. The way I see this fight is different. Hongo and Saiga, in terms of actual attributes, are not THAT far apart. But Saiga is a much much smarter fighter. It's not like Saiga moves so fast even when he's not trying that Hongo can't even react and have to stand still.

 

But Saiga exploited Hongo's care for Nijima and also he does not aim to kill (harder) but only to incapacitate by pressure points. Also Hongo does not have a strong motivation to kill in this fight either.

 

Case in point, Shiba was able to outrun him for a while too, so Saiga's speed isn't that far beyond grandmaster scale.

 

Also so far in HSDK, the author had avoided the "sorting algorithm of evil" (villains are introduced in order of power) cliche, so this is quite normal. Saiga isn't actually that much stronger than Hongo, but he fights much smarter.

So does that mean Kushinada and Jenazad are stronger than Saiga!!??

Thats weird knowing that there are members in the ONSF that are stronger than the leader! I mean Ganosuke is by faaaaaaaaaaaaar stronger than Seitaro,Edletraft,Marmaduke and even more powerful than the GREAT Michael Schtilvay!  

Anyway, Im glad to see Hongo live to fight another day, he is one of my favorite characters and him dying would be devastating since he has alot to offer like training a NEW disciple and becoming some form of anti-hero! No doubt, he has alot to offer to this series!

That being said, I am worried while Hongo is down, that AWFUL Michael Schtilvay might pop up for revenge and clearly, Hongo is not in the best form right now!

So does that mean Kushinada and Jenazad are stronger than Saiga!!??

Thats weird knowing that there are members in the ONSF that are stronger than the leader! I mean Ganosuke is by faaaaaaaaaaaaar stronger than Seitaro,Edletraft,Marmaduke and even more powerful than the GREAT Michael Schtilvay!  

Anyway, Im glad to see Hongo live to fight another day, he is one of my favorite characters and him dying would be devastating since he has alot to offer like training a NEW disciple and becoming some form of anti-hero! No doubt, he has alot to offer to this series!

That being said, I am worried while Hongo is down, that AWFUL Michael Schtilvay might pop up for revenge and clearly, Hongo is not in the best form right now!

Ya, but Hongo is already able to slowly stand up right after being hit by Saiga (the panel where he grunt and try to stand up as Saiga about to kill Nijima), so he should be able to handle himself.

Not sure about Kushinada (who also seems to be a technique fighter mostly, with actual physical attributes still in the grandmaster class, and she may not be more skilled than Saiga, who is probably the most analytical fighter in the series so far, even more so than Akisame it seems).

But Gannosuke and Jenazad are clearly shown to be a wide margin stronger than the grandmaster class in every attributes. For example in the Jenazad fight, he was faster, stronger, AND has more finesse than Hongo. Hongo really could not keep up on any attribute at all, even from the start of the fight he had to stand still and block just to avoid getting hit, and Jenazad wasn't even going all out yet. A good number of times Jenazad hit Hongo, neither Hongo nor Sasaki even saw the attack coming and were visibly surprised after the attack has landed. It's like the gap between Tanaka and Ogata. Gannosuke also fought the Elder to a draw, so we could extrapolate that Gannosuke is about as lethal as Jenazad if not more so (won't hold back as much). Gannosuke's actual physical attribute may not be above "high grandmaster" though, but it doesn't matter, because using a weapon (well) adds that much of an advantage ("3 times the dan") to a fighter.

It's completely understandable that the leader in an organization may not be the strongest fighter, actually. Saiga just has to be the best leader (which he clearly is). Hongo actually have never fought Saiga before, and we can deduce that none of the OSNF fought Saiga before, because if they did, and Saiga won the leadership position by right of conquest and not by charisma and negotiation, then Jenazad would not have been so flippant about capturing Miu (and he would have memories of being defeated by someone else before Hongo) and Mikumo would not facilitate the kidnapping (she would have remembered losing to Saiga too).

Interesting very interesting.

Hehe, I knew that hand movement was from somewhere. The technique that Hongo used on Saiga is confirmed to be Hongo's first serious opening move against Jenazad after tricking Jenazad into lowering his guard with the front kick. He had a bit more time to prep it this time, that's why it became a "choose one" move, but it was not his final fatal move. Also, according to Saiga's comment, Hongou is going katsujinken this time...

That final attack against Jenazad was executed at such close range that their noses were almost touching. This is nothing that serious.

The mangastream translation was more on the line of Hongo being able to dodge all of Saiga's vital point attacks, but that is nonsense, because Saiga definitely hit! And if he was aiming at vital points to kill, then why immediately say in the next page that he was only aiming for a marma to stun? The MS translation is very inconsistent and illogical for this chapter, so I'll base all analysis on the Mangapanda one.

judging by the way the art itself was drawn from panel to panel, i would say that saiga is clearly as fast as kushinada at the very least, but that's just my opinion. Also i find it hard to believe that saiga isnt the strongest of osnf, its quite logical, regardless of the method, it would be obviously logical to assume that his fighting style reigns supreme of the 10 yami, it would not be possible to hold such a group of individuals together if he could not do it with his fists. it doesnt have to be a "winner = leader" thing with the osnf but for leadership in the kenichi series, its always gone to the one with the most brawn. 

And should it be true that he isnt the superior fighter, then i find it hard that hongo, jenazad, mikumo, guidar or sogetsu would remain relatively tame under his leadership, its unrealistic, unless their are higher powers calling the shots, which is unlikely(?)

oh and shiba is a boss XD ITS SO CLICHE NOW THAT THE MOMENT BAD SHIT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN SOMEONE COMES IN WITH A BADASS ATTACK TO SAVE A LIFE!!.....i feel sorry for tanaka, he was done injustice since no one jumped in to save him....though his head rests in pieces, may his soul rest in peace...

I only have one question when Saiga was about to kill nijima he said, "a small sacrifice in a great cause... MANY PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED THANKS TO THIS..." even in mangastream was something similar. Is he serious or is he delusional? How can the eternal sunset save people?

I only have one question when Saiga was about to kill nijima he said, "a small sacrifice in a great cause... MANY PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED THANKS TO THIS..." even in mangastream was something similar. Is he serious or is he delusional? How can the eternal sunset save people?

Either Saiga has become utterly delusional (possible) and believes in something completely illogical (also possible) or...

... he is knowingly a despot trying to justify his action with pretty words (unlikely, not consistent with his character in any way) or...

... he is serious and had a real plan (but perhaps completely wrong in his analysis).

I would assume that Saiga had a plan, which would actually explain @Onigiri_boy's question above on how Saiga managed to gather people while never having to fight any of them. Basically, Saiga has a plan so audacious, so compelling, so GLOBAL in scope, and yet leaves enough room for fun and interpretation, that it basically united all the Satsujinkens in the room.

Jenazad said himself that the OSNF is basically just a convenient temporary alliance so that they don't fight each other to the death while some plan is being enacted. He had zero worry kidnapping Miu, after all.

But whatever plan Saiga had must be COOL enough in a martial arts sense, and yet big enough that all of the OSNF realize that it involves more planning than any of them can do alone.

I only have one question when Saiga was about to kill nijima he said, "a small sacrifice in a great cause... MANY PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED THANKS TO THIS..." even in mangastream was something similar. Is he serious or is he delusional? How can the eternal sunset save people?

Good question

Either Saiga has become utterly delusional (possible) and believes in something completely illogical (also possible) or...

 

... he is knowingly a despot trying to justify his action with pretty words (unlikely, not consistent with his character in any way) or...

 

... he is serious and had a real plan (but perhaps completely wrong in his analysis).

 

I would assume that Saiga had a plan, which would actually explain @onigiri_boy's question above on how Saiga managed to gather people while never having to fight any of them. Basically, Saiga has a plan so audacious, so compelling, so GLOBAL in scope, and yet leaves enough room for fun and interpretation, that it basically united all the Satsujinkens in the room.

 

Jenazad said himself that the OSNF is basically just a convenient temporary alliance so that they don't fight each other to the death while some plan is being enacted. He had zero worry kidnapping Miu, after all.

 

But whatever plan Saiga had must be COOL enough in a martial arts sense, and yet big enough that all of the OSNF realize that it involves more planning than any of them can do alone.

And good idea

Does anyone know about this "Guide Book" that the wiki briefly mentioned? Supposedly it's giving info about Yami/Yomi, i.e. Lugh's real name, Asuka, Diego's real age and birthday etc..

judging by the way the art itself was drawn from panel to panel, i would say that saiga is clearly as fast as kushinada at the very least, but that's just my opinion. Also i find it hard to believe that saiga isnt the strongest of osnf, its quite logical, regardless of the method, it would be obviously logical to assume that his fighting style reigns supreme of the 10 yami, it would not be possible to hold such a group of individuals together if he could not do it with his fists. it doesnt have to be a "winner = leader" thing with the osnf but for leadership in the kenichi series, its always gone to the one with the most brawn. 

 

And should it be true that he isnt the superior fighter, then i find it hard that hongo, jenazad, mikumo, guidar or sogetsu would remain relatively tame under his leadership, its unrealistic, unless their are higher powers calling the shots, which is unlikely(?)

I honestly believe that there are higher powers based on Hongo/Hajime/Sakakis final encounters in that room that Hongo vs Hajime death match took place!

Remember, there were a group of Yami members in the shadow being present to witness the Hongo/Hajime death match! Well I reckon that based on christophers comment of yami having a presence in different countries as well as Sifu Jisei Ro may mean that there maybe other yami masters that may have the ability to hold a seat but they may perfer to operate behind the scenes.

So its possible that there are yami masters in different countries like Africa, Middle east,Central and North americas that are also yami masters who wish not to be seated as a OSNF due to them needing to run their own terriorties or perfering to just use yamis resources by being a "Member" so they could find powerful opponents within the Yami connection so they could just improve their own skillset. This was Sais reason since he became a  yami member and a satsujinken so he could find different opponents that are also involved in the weapons world.

Another thing to note is that, had Sai Kagerou have made a decision to take on a disciple and join the Hachiou Executioner Blade, he could have EASILY been the second strongest master in the armed division. So perhaps there are yami members in the shadow who do not hold a seat as a OSNF members but MAY be almost as strong as Saiga and Kushinada. Remember when Ryo masters first talked about Ganosuke they said something like "there are few masters that are at Hayatos level" So if there are two legendary masters in japan who are both japanese born. Then its possible that there might be few masters at Saigas/Kushinadas level around the globe that maybe perhaps a yami member.

First off, awesome chapter.  We had three fights go on with progress in each of them.  And again, Kenichi is awesome in where the villain is trying to figure out how to get around his techniques.  

I love how Shiba's technique for vengeance is much deeper than "winning" in a fight alone.  It's to crush the man's dreams - whatever they may be.  It was also a better less "predictable" way to handle the fight.  

As to the power scales, we've seen the superman-grandfather lose track of Seitaro in their first meeting.  And for fighters being stronger than one another, sometimes the weaker fighter wins, as was the case with Hongo and Jenazad.  I like how Citizen_lion put it: They just fight smarter.  A chess battle between close fighters, where small mistakes in the early game are capitalized for a late game victory.  

However, that said, Saiga is definitely better than Hongo.  Evidence: He could throw a stone at Nijima and not take a hit from Hongo.  Almost every other master, if they make a hand gesture to their disciple, or say something to someone else, are always punished for the small opening.  Hongo didn't even get a chance here.  

Also, as a result of the chapter, I think James Shiba has erased his death flags.  The only thing that will kill him now is a desire to slow down Saiga.  If Nijima completes his mission before James needs to sacrifice himself, he will in turn be saved. 

First off, awesome chapter.  We had three fights go on with progress in each of them.  And again, Kenichi is awesome in where the villain is trying to figure out how to get around his techniques.  

 

I love how Shiba's technique for vengeance is much deeper than "winning" in a fight alone.  It's to crush the man's dreams - whatever they may be.  It was also a better less "predictable" way to handle the fight.  

 

As to the power scales, we've seen the superman-grandfather lose track of Seitaro in their first meeting.  And for fighters being stronger than one another, sometimes the weaker fighter wins, as was the case with Hongo and Jenazad.  I like how Citizen_lion put it: They just fight smarter.  A chess battle between close fighters, where small mistakes in the early game are capitalized for a late game victory.  

 

However, that said, Saiga is definitely better than Hongo.  Evidence: He could throw a stone at Nijima and not take a hit from Hongo.  Almost every other master, if they make a hand gesture to their disciple, or say something to someone else, are always punished for the small opening.  Hongo didn't even get a chance here.  

 

Also, as a result of the chapter, I think James Shiba has erased his death flags.  The only thing that will kill him now is a desire to slow down Saiga.  If Nijima completes his mission before James needs to sacrifice himself, he will in turn be saved. 

I agree on all of your points, but this one is particularly interesting. This little detail showed that Saiga is better than Hongo clearly, but not leaps and bounds better, not a whole class better. Why? He could throw a stone without giving away an opening, but he can only target Nijima's general direction. Saiga's aim is to kill Nijima, but if he diverted enough concentration to make a killshot or even a paralyzing injury shot, Hongo might have found a good enough opening to put a solid hit in (as it stands, he almost did with that Nukite). 

So I would rank Saiga as "the highest among the grandmasters, but not quite yet a legendary". Some of his attributes are already in the legendary class though, like his dash speed, which is in the 800+km/h range and consistent with speed feats by Hayato and Jenazad.

But his handspeed may not be that much higher than Hongo's (understandable, since Hongo is a Karate specialist, and there are not many martial arts in the world specializing more on hand techniques than Karate, except maybe Wing Chun Kungfu), which explains why in a direct face-to-face clash, he only has a little bit of free concentration. But the moment Hongo tries the footwork game, he lost.

Another comparison is in strength. When blocking Hongo's nukite by putting his own fingers in between Hongo's fingers, Saiga stopped the blow cold, which speaks of a strength level equal to or higher than Hongo's. However, that is not comparable to Jenazad's feat breaking 3 of Hongo's fingers using ONE of his fingers, and from a disadvantaged angle, no less. Basically Hongo grabbed Jenazad's finger, trying to break it, and Jenazad casually yanked back hard and broke 3 of Hongo's fingers instead... http://www.mangahere...v45/c472/9.html

I also rank Mikumo in this "almost legendary but not quite yet" class too, actually. Her technique is clearly better than any of the grandmasters and in the legendary grade already, but all of her other attributes had not reached legendary yet. Her speed did not overwhelm Ma Kensei. To be fair she did not manage to tag Ma even once until receiving the aid of 3 other grandmasters, and with the aid of one other grandmaster (Apachai), Ma tagged her too.

I agree on all of your points, but this one is particularly interesting. This little detail showed that Saiga is better than Hongo clearly, but not leaps and bounds better, not a whole class better. Why? He could throw a stone without giving away an opening, but he can only target Nijima's general direction. Saiga's aim is to kill Nijima, but if he diverted enough concentration to make a killshot or even a paralyzing injury shot, Hongo might have found a good enough opening to put a solid hit in (as it stands, he almost did with that Nukite). 

 

So I would rank Saiga as "the highest among the grandmasters, but not quite yet a legendary". Some of his attributes are already in the legendary class though, like his dash speed, which is in the 800+km/h range and consistent with speed feats by Hayato and Jenazad.

 

But his handspeed may not be that much higher than Hongo's, which explains why in a direct face-to-face clash, he only has a little bit of free concentration. But the moment Hongo tries the footwork game, he lost.

 

Another comparison is in strength. When blocking Hongo's nukite by putting his own fingers in between Hongo's fingers, Saiga stopped the blow cold, which speaks of a strength level equal to or higher than Hongo's. However, that is not comparable to Jenazad's feat breaking 3 of Hongo's fingers using ONE of his fingers, and from a disadvantaged angle, no less. Basically Hongo grabbed Jenazad's finger, trying to break it, and Jenazad casually yanked back hard and broke 3 of Hongo's fingers instead... http://www.mangahere...v45/c472/9.html

 

I also rank Mikumo in this "almost legendary but not quite yet" class too, actually. Her technique is clearly better than any of the grandmasters and in the legendary grade already, but all of her other attributes had not reached legendary yet. Her speed did not overwhelm Ma Kensei. To be fair she did not manage to tag Ma even once until receiving the aid of 3 other grandmasters, and with the aid of one other grandmaster (Apachai), Ma tagged her too.

I would agree, I highly doubt that Hayato was a legendary master in his 20's or 30's. The same for Mikumo as she's lived for 80+ years with no signs of aging and clearly not as strong as Hayoto or Ganosuke. In fact she's only slightly ahead of Ryozanpaku is a testament to that. Saiga is on the very high end of Grand Master or surpassed that, as it seems the Fūrinji is known for their strong physique and leg power especially it seems. He stoped Hongo's Jinenken: Nejire Nukite(Thats basically his signature move) with one hand. To me, because of backround and the way his Ideology is, I dont think he was going at full power either. I wont be surprised if he spares Shiba. To adress Jenazads great feat of breaking 3 fingers with one finger and lift him off the ground, I beleive its better power distribution, as he put it, and a longer history of battle. Saiga also seems more collected than the way Elder makes his younger self seem, challenging everything and WINNING. So I think Elder received more experience faster( not saying Saiga isn't experienced too) than Saiga as well as being much older than him. In short, Saiga will improve to the Elders level with more time in addition to being the strongest fist(One Shadow).http://www.mangapand...hapter-266.html. The way the panel of the fists sorta indignated it was like the reaction here http://www.mangapand...hapter-189.html.(Next 3 pages) (Yes stronger than the extremely experienced Mi-chan ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ). I beleive I read in a comment before(Forgive me for not quoting) that it may seem that if they all fought Saiga, they would lose. To see a bunch Individualists like Jenazad shut up and turn white(highly amusing) is very telling. 

http://www.mangapand...hapter-266.html. The way the panel of the fists sorta indignated it was like the reaction here http://www.mangapand...hapter-189.html.(Next 3 pages) (Yes stronger than the extremely experienced Mi-chan ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ). I beleive I read in a comment before(Forgive me for not quoting) that it may seem that if they all fought Saiga, they would lose. To see a bunch Individualists like Jenazad shut up and turn white(highly amusing) is very telling. 

I agree with most of what you said except that last bit. The problem with this is that someone like Jenazad or Mikumo shutting up doesn't really mean much, because they are schemers too, as well as fighters. We later see that Jenazad has zero problem kidnapping the Elder's granddaughter, and shrug off the prospect of making an enemy out of the OSNF, so if he really had feared Saiga, he wouldn't have the crazy nerve to do something like that.

It could simply be explained by embarrassment. Everyone just realizes that they were supposed to be superhumans, and here they are arguing among themselves. This shows Saiga's and Hayato's leadership ability, but not necessarily strength (Mark Zuckerberg is the founder of Facebook, and the "one shadow" of FB, but he may not be the best programmer in Facebook ).

More importantly, Yami is bigger than any one of them, and even Jenazad knows that he can't compete against the might of Yami if it really comes down to a big fight right then and there.

But does he actually fear Saiga the individual (instead of Yami, the conglomerate)? I doubt so, because he fought the freaking Elder to a draw before (and throughout the manga, their feats literally mirror each other's), and going from established evidences, it appears like none of the OSNF fought each other before, so there's not much indication that anyone of them really understood all the others, unlike in Ryo where everyone does spar with everyone else frequently.

Although it's true that Saiga hadn't go all out (but we can also argue that Hongo didn't go all out in the Saiga fight either, not nearly to the extent of the Jenazad fight). Saiga's true power remains to be seen, thought I would rather see that Saiga is not overpowered, so that we can see Senzui, and the other shadowy figures in Yami that @Ogata referred to being set up as the final villains.

Lmfao at Mark Zuckerberg being the Saiga Furinji of facebook!

I agree in regards to Jenazad, for him it wasen't fear but common courtesy for the leader to keep it down since everyone else did and so it would be taboo of him to keep talking. Also its important to note that, while some osnf masters acknowledge that they maybe weaker than other members like Diego knowing that Hongo is above him.

Some members might think they are much stronger than they actual are, for example, Michael Schtilvay probably thinks that he is ALMOST as strong as Ganosuke seeing how he was bragging to Mycroft that he was kicking ass early on even though the reality was, he was just taking out cannon fodder cops which was boosting his confidence.

Michael Schtilvay=Chael Sonnen of HSDK, both of them have a high opinion of themselves but have enough balls to challenge everyone and anyone and when they get punked, they pretend like it never happened and they are still way too awesome in their profession. Although Chael has a sense of humor.


 

I agree with most of what you said except that last bit. The problem with this is that someone like Jenazad or Mikumo shutting up doesn't really mean much, because they are schemers too, as well as fighters. We later see that Jenazad has zero problem kidnapping the Elder's granddaughter, and shrug off the prospect of making an enemy out of the OSNF, so if he really had feared Saiga, he wouldn't have the crazy nerve to do something like that.

 

It could simply be explained by embarrassment. Everyone just realizes that they were supposed to be superhumans, and here they are arguing among themselves. This shows Saiga's and Hayato's leadership ability, but not necessarily strength (Mark Zuckerberg is the founder of Facebook, and the "one shadow" of FB, but he may not be the best programmer in Facebook ).

 

More importantly, Yami is bigger than any one of them, and even Jenazad knows that he can't compete against the might of Yami if it really comes down to a big fight right then and there.

 

But does he actually fear Saiga the individual (instead of Yami, the conglomerate)? I doubt so, because he fought the freaking Elder to a draw before (and throughout the manga, their feats literally mirror each other's), and going from established evidences, it appears like none of the OSNF fought each other before, so there's not much indication that anyone of them really understood all the others, unlike in Ryo where everyone does spar with everyone else frequently.

 

Although it's true that Saiga hadn't go all out (but we can also argue that Hongo didn't go all out in the Saiga fight either, not nearly to the extent of the Jenazad fight). Saiga's true power remains to be seen, thought I would rather see that Saiga is not overpowered, so that we can see Senzui, and the other shadowy figures in Yami that @Ogata referred to being set up as the final villains.

http://www.mangapand...-kenichi/432/18

The very last panel concerns me there. "Having someone become the bad guy wont be bad at all." I dont Jenazad was thinking very clearly(as we all know he's insane) when he kidnaped Miu. While Saiga and Hongo are not going all out, even Jenazad completely own Hongo in a second. Even yet still, I don't think either was trying to kill each other. We also have to take into account the Non-aggression treaty they have. Saiga didn't immediately do anything may indicate that he wont outright break his own rules. To make anymore analysis

we need to see more of Saiga's strength first. Anyone want a time machine to a year in the future for me? 

Wait a second, that panel combatmaster...who is Kensei talking to?  Jinetsuken?  Who is that?  I didn't even remember this scene.  That couldn't be Sensui?  

edit: and now, rereading the most recent chapter, Hongo uses an attack that is called, "Jin'etsuken".   Whatever it means, Ogata must have been speaking to Hongo.  I guess hongo is not formally part of Yami?

@citizen_lion 

I considered at first that Saiga missed on purpose, if only because of some form of pride.  However, Saiga then went on commenting how Hongo was slower because he was trying to protect the child.  You may be right, Lion.  Saiga's throw was thrown off by Hongo, but Hongo could not win because he lost his flexibility by having to defend Niijima.  

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I agree on all of your points, but this one is particularly interesting. This little detail showed that Saiga is better than Hongo clearly, but not leaps and bounds better, not a whole class better. Why? He could throw a stone without giving away an opening, but he can only target Nijima's general direction. Saiga's aim is to kill Nijima, but if he diverted enough concentration to make a killshot or even a paralyzing injury shot, Hongo might have found a good enough opening to put a solid hit in (as it stands, he almost did with that Nukite). 
 
So I would rank Saiga as "the highest among the grandmasters, but not quite yet a legendary". Some of his attributes are already in the legendary class though, like his dash speed, which is in the 800+km/h range and consistent with speed feats by Hayato and Jenazad.
 
But his handspeed may not be that much higher than Hongo's (understandable, since Hongo is a Karate specialist, and there are not many martial arts in the world specializing more on hand techniques than Karate, except maybe Wing Chun Kungfu), which explains why in a direct face-to-face clash, he only has a little bit of free concentration. But the moment Hongo tries the footwork game, he lost.
 
Another comparison is in strength. When blocking Hongo's nukite by putting his own fingers in between Hongo's fingers, Saiga stopped the blow cold, which speaks of a strength level equal to or higher than Hongo's. However, that is not comparable to Jenazad's feat breaking 3 of Hongo's fingers using ONE of his fingers, and from a disadvantaged angle, no less. Basically Hongo grabbed Jenazad's finger, trying to break it, and Jenazad casually yanked back hard and broke 3 of Hongo's fingers instead... http://www.mangahere...v45/c472/9.html
 
I also rank Mikumo in this "almost legendary but not quite yet" class too, actually. Her technique is clearly better than any of the grandmasters and in the legendary grade already, but all of her other attributes had not reached legendary yet. Her speed did not overwhelm Ma Kensei. To be fair she did not manage to tag Ma even once until receiving the aid of 3 other grandmasters, and with the aid of one other grandmaster (Apachai), Ma tagged her too.

It does seem that Jenazad was more overwhelming than Saiga, Hongo could barely block his attacks but maybe it could be Hongo has grown stronger since Tidat. We know fighting people stronger than you increases your strength eg. Kenichi and Natsu, add on that we've seen supermasters like Alexandre and Seitaro grew stronger after fighting Akisame and elder. On top of this Jenazad was lecturing Hongo on his weaknesses during their fight such as imperfect power distribution, weak forearms, "You've caught me but I've caught you". poor ki feints. Jenazad may have been insane but his martial arts were top tier surely Hongo worked on these at least.

Edit* Another thing a big part of why Hongo and Sakaki are that strong was Hajime's influence in that one fight where thay learnt his techniques by copying them and cutting out useless movements thing and Akisame once said in ancient times people fought more and training is to compensate for that, so fight are really important. 

http://www.mangapand...-kenichi/432/18

The very last panel concerns me there. "Having someone become the bad guy wont be bad at all." I dont Jenazad was thinking very clearly(as we all know he's insane) when he kidnaped Miu. While Saiga and Hongo are not going all out, even Jenazad completely own Hongo in a second. Even yet still, I don't think either was trying to kill each other. We also have to take into account the Non-aggression treaty they have. Saiga didn't immediately do anything may indicate that he wont outright break his own rules. To make anymore analysis

we need to see more of Saiga's strength first. Anyone want a time machine to a year in the future for me? 

Oh, that comment "having some one become a bad guy" refers to Hongo. Jenazad uses Hongo as the scapegoat when brainwashing Miu, saying that Hongo killed Kenichi and her entire family. The author is familiar enough with human psychology to make it a plot point that a person is more easily manipulated if there is a clear scapegoat pointed out for all of her misery... It's actually not illogical. Deranged and insane obviously, but very apt for the context.

Yea, I also agree that Saiga didn't go all out yet, and when going all out, he might be stronger than even all the other legendaries, but personally I hope that this isn't the case, because it will be quite cliche, and inconsistent with the storytelling so far where the "sorting algorithm of evil" trope so often seen in Shonen has been expertly averted.

@Ogata I also agree about Michael by the way. I want him to show up more as a villain, because if anyone has the biggest potential for opportunistically doing the most damage, that is him. It makes him all the more sinister as a villain because no one will see it coming. He reminds me of Kill Vearn in the old Dai No Daibouken manga (which I very very highly recommended. The art still looks decent compared to manga of today, and the storytelling beats just about any manga of today)

 

 

@Ogata I also agree about Michael by the way. I want him to show up more as a villain, because if anyone has the biggest potential for opportunistically doing the most damage, that is him. It makes him all the more sinister as a villain because no one will see it coming. He reminds me of Kill Vearn in the old Dai No Daibouken manga (which I very very highly recommended. The art still looks decent compared to manga of today, and the storytelling beats just about any manga of today)

Michael kind of looks like Steve Fox from tekken, though Steve was a COMPLETE opposite of Michael since Steve was a cool and level headed middleweight boxer who fought for skills and to stop the evil doings of Mishima corp. That being said, Michael is very similar to Joker from monster rancher, who is like a digimon type monster who also carries a scythe very very similar to Michaels!

But yeah, going back to your previous post, I can see Michael growing up in a place or farm that has lots of livestock and fine wine. I also feel that the "Schtilvay" last name may perhaps be some prestigous family of rich folks or a prominent politican/weapon masters and this might sound dumb but...I for some WEIRD reason feel that, Michaels home is a mansion that is similar to the mansion in resident evil 1 or devil may cry palace that belonged to Mundus.

I have to say, I am very upset that his abilities got nerfed big time! The guy has the looks, the weapon and personality to be one of the BEST and most awesome villains of all time and not some shitty cannon fodder master. He is the guy that needs to have his character redone

@Ogata I really have to give Shigure credit, as she really respects her opponents. Micheal had 0 chance of beating her 1 on 1. Shigure is one of the best weapon masters in the world it seems. Imagine her power if she would actually cut with the blade, but not kill. She has a major disadvantage in this regard. She could do a disabling slash at the arm or shoulder and have instantly won by disabling her enemies ability to wage war. If you were a weapon master, would you kill? Or would you cut off limbs or cut muscles but nothing life dangerous? Or be Shigure(no not her but her Ideology )? I would really like to hear this...