HSDK Battle 569 Released

Whoever predicted that Marmaduke was a woman was on point (I wonder if it was on this forum though), It seems the author us going to focus on the masters till the end then Kenichi.

Damn man, Rahman seems like a pretty powerful dude who has been sheltered from the story/action for a longtime.

That being said, where does Ogata stand in all of this???

For a guy who saves Tanimotos life without expecting anything+showing deep remorse for killing an unborn baby makes me believe that he shoulden't be in to starting wars like this and he along with Berserker/Lugh should be just walk away and just do their own thing as ethical satsujinkens not scoop down to Kushinada/Jenazad or Michaels level even!

It was great seeing how the masters of Yami changed sides and what not , but I'm still waiting for Shigure to pop out from her hiding spot . There is still so much to be revealed . I feel like everything has been a bit rushed though ... It would've been so much better if Ryozanpaku would've recruited all the Katsujinken masters to really duke it out with Yami , same with Shinpaku and Yomi . It's nice to see that some members of Yami still have some respect / shred of soul in tact . Who knows what's going to happen , this can go anywhere with the laughing fist and exterminating fist entering the fight and Saiga still giving no fucks about the battle outcomes !

Great chapter I'm really curious at what is going to happen.

The Agaard and Apachai moment was the most beautiful turn for me. There is something so sublime about both of them, like they have both reached their own inner psychological enlightenment. Different forms of enlightenment, but they have both reached it. Very similar to the Sasaki / Hongo moment just before their fights, by the way.

I don't think the story is ending anytime soon, and Ogata won't show his hand just yet.

The next phase of the plan, I would guess to be "launch all the missiles!" "all the missiles?!" "Yes, ALL of them!"

Double posting because can't edit. I notice that this thread doesn't show up in the latest news section. Can @Rimi or @Baby Joe put it on the front page?

Thanks

It's up now!

Unarmed yami never really liked armed yami or their ethics so turning against them is no surprise.

I just want to give props to Guru Rahman! Im glad he put his footdown on the idea of Kushinada threatning Shigure like that. This was the first time we have seen Kushinada get damaged like that and she has fought Sakaki/Shigure at the same time as well as blocking a strike from Akisame behind and surviving Sai Kagerous best techniques.

Im not saying Guru Rahman is at Hayato/Ganosukes level, but I don't know man, Kushinada already blocked akisames strike from behind and she casualy dodged both Shigure/Sakaki at the same time while she got Knocked down by Guru Rahmans fist of behrum!!!!


P.S: Does anyone think that Kushinadas problem is that, she longs for a nice hard Dong? To me she reminds me of dudes that are sexualy frustrated who gets her heart broken and then does a 180 with the whole emotion thing and so she has to take it out on the world.

This is Ogatas time to give Kushinada the young D and for the author to give us the whole Milf/Young man moment in Ogata/Kushinada. After all, Ogata MACKED on her hard during the meeting when they were discussing jenazads death and Hongos situation. Woooh, give it to her Ogata-sexy-sama-sensei!!!!

Either that or someone needs to give Kushinada a golden retreiver/Labrador puppy or something since she looks like hurting on the inside but is powerful enough to want to make everyone suffer.so she doesn't feel alone in her inner pain. If I was one of the masters in their I would just grab her,give her a hug and tell her "its ok, we have all been there before" hopefuly that would calm her down and is better solution than fighting her.

@Ogata, I think you got Kushinada's psychology down pat there. I hope the author really explore her past, because I would bet my hat that it involves being rejected in love (by Hayato, obviously), and had to do something horrible, possibly to save Hayato.

By the way someone asked if the Sunset is a metaphorical event or a real event. It is a real event. The Eternal Sunset is basically Yami's code word for "world war". The last one is the second world war. This was stated by Hayato himself.

Even Hayato would not survive something like a tank cannon shot direct hit, or even a simple rifle grenade well-aimed at his head. I think we have seen enough consistent evidence in the manga to establish the power cap for legendary masters. They are far into the superhero grade, but they are not anywhere near the likes of Superman, the Martian, or Green Lantern, and apart from that power class, high-end conventional weapons still kill them just fine (if they manage to hit)... Who know if in the last Sunset Mikumo had to kill for the first time to prevent someone from getting a lucky shot at Hayato? And this resulted in Hayato spurning her?

Note: and I'm certain that in their late 20's, early 30's, Hayato and Mikumo were not legendary masters either. They probably just entered the rank of grandmaster.

Hayato also said that in the last Eternal Sunset, a great number of master-class martial artists died. It could also be that most of these who died were Katsujinken followers, and Mikumo switched to killing because she saw too many of her friends' kindness and mercy being rewarded with bullets...

I hope that this is the case. Some sexual release won't be enough though. It has to be given by someone who can fight on her level, and is also mature enough to talk sense into her. I think the Golden Retriever solution has more chance here

@Ogata, I think you got Kushinada's psychology down pat there. I hope the author really explore her past, because I would bet my hat that it involves being rejected in love (by Hayato, obviously), and had to do something horrible, possibly to save Hayato.

 

By the way someone asked if the Sunset is a metaphorical event or a real event. It is a real event. The Eternal Sunset is basically Yami's code word for "world war". The last one is the second world war. This was stated by Hayato himself.

 

Even Hayato would not survive something like a tank cannon shot direct hit, or even a simple rifle grenade well-aimed at his head. I think we have seen enough consistent evidence in the manga to establish the power cap for legendary masters. They are far into the superhero grade, but they are not anywhere near the likes of Superman, the Martian, or Green Lantern, and apart from that power class, high-end conventional weapons still kill them just fine (if they manage to hit)... Who know if in the last Sunset Mikumo had to kill for the first time to prevent someone from getting a lucky shot at Hayato? And this resulted in Hayato spurning her?

 

Note: and I'm certain that in their late 20's, early 30's, Hayato and Mikumo were not legendary masters either. They probably just entered the rank of grandmaster.

 

Hayato also said that in the last Eternal Sunset, a great number of master-class martial artists died. It could also be that most of these who died were Katsujinken followers, and Mikumo switched to killing because she saw too many of her friends' kindness and mercy being rewarded with bullets...

 

I hope that this is the case. Some sexual release won't be enough though. It has to be given by someone who can fight on her level, and is also mature enough to talk sense into her. I think the Golden Retriever solution has more chance here

Damn dude, the way you described the last sunset reminded me of Boxers rebellion which was a IRL event that showed that guns/bullets are more powerful than shaolin kungfu iron shirt/diamond body. Which was a dark event for chinese martial artists.

I disagree with you on Hayato not being to deal with a world war, technicaly speaking he is way too fast for him to get caught in any land mines,missles,cannons. I mean a guy like Michael walked right into a middle eastern battlefield that are infamous with landmines and he is so fast that the landmines are useless since he is gone by the time his feet touch them. He is also way too fast for any rifles and can manuaver his body in war trenches and take every solider out despite his large,akward weapon of choice.

Also in the anime, Ogata took two bullets too his back and in the original kenichi series, Kenichi shot Sakaki in his knee caps and Sakaki got mad at him but walked it off. Ofcourse Hongo did get messed up from getting shot up but then he took TONS of bullets and at the time he was not half as good as he was and yet he got up the next day and won his karate tournament. Ofcourse Hayato is far and above beyond Michael,Young Hongo and current Sakaki and wars are expensive.

Another thing too notice is that, when the first eternal sunset happened in which tons of masters died was I think because at the time, masters of the previous generation were not familiar with the modern technology and had no idea what their limit was. Now todays HSDK masters are well aware of how modern weapon/soldiers work,they know how to deal with them, they have the internet which Ryo masters do use to their advantage to research modern weaponry or how yami use it to figure out their location,sniff out the snipers and sharpshooters. While modern weapon/soldiers can't deal with masters anymore since their element of suprise is gone in the modern hsdk timeline since todays masters are aware of snipers and how modern weapons work.

Also disagree on Ogata, he is a very handsome and charming man who can wooo any women with this boyish good looks and winning smile and even though I personaly am not gay, for Ogata I would probably swing that way.

Now lets discuss one of the most powerful masters in the series, which is Guru Rahman and in Yoga and Kalaripayttu they are big in to Mantras and pranayama and other type of estorics and I met a yogi in 2007 who could touch an item and tell where it has been. She made me a believer when she held my grandpas clock and described him and his room in a frightningly accurate manner. I also believe that Yogis have a thing called "Siddhis" which are special abilities and this made me wonder....Does Guru Rahman have special powers like being able to levitate,fly,teleport?? (fyi I have NEVER seen these type of human capabilities at these particular level)

I was very impressed by the fact that he was able to knock her backwards with his move, even though Akisame tried sucker punching her while she dodged it at the same time fighting another master.



Edit: Jesus that was a long post but damn its too much fun

Oh and agree on the golden retriever, they along with little buggers like Kenichi have a better chance of helping super masters finding their innocent and pure nature.
 

@Ogata (mentioning instead of quoting because the post will get way too long ) In my previous post, what I mean is that even Hayato / Jenazad / Gannosuke / Mikumo would not survive a direct hit from a tank cannon, or even a rifle grenade to the face. They can fight a small army relatively easily because it is nearly impossible to hit them, and their endurance is certainly enough to tank explosive shockwaves, so even a near hit doesn't really affect them much. Small arms fire will hurt them, but not killing them outright unless with a large number of hits. 

Back in the scene where Hongo got hit (and these are only half a dozen bullets or so, in none vital locations). He immediately got medical attention, and friends to protect him. In a war, if you get hit once and slows down, you will likely get hit again and again and die in the next few seconds.

The problem is that in world war 2, all of these conventional weapons are fielded in truly massive numbers, so Hayato could simply failed to sense something, and had his back to a tank cannon. If the tank fires before Hayato notices it, it's over, because a tank cannon shot muzzle velocity in that era is still roughly 500m/s, faster than the top speed of a legendary master, and much much faster than a bullet.

So Mikumo might have done something to the effect of redirecting a piece of field artillery to the tank, or jam a grenade down the tank's hatch, or something similar, to save Hayato. Hayato turns back just in time to see Mikumo looking all demonic in her exertion, and in the middle of horribly killing someone. Their relationship and partnership fell apart.

Note: I just realize something. Mikumo is basically who Miu would become if Kenichi dies, or if she did something horrible to protect him, and then he rejects her afterward...

I'll post about Rahman later. Too tired to think (jesus, when I am tired at work I start to analyze manga, but when I'm too tired to analyze manga, that means I'm really really exhausted. Need sleeep...)

I agree with you on the fact that the masters would be in trouble if they decide to take a direct approach on facing a world war amy. But the thing is, masters are way to stealthy and can sense killing intent coming from ppl holding a rifle. This was evident by the fact that ryo masters sniffed out the sniper on the roof during the Kenichi/Miu kidnap attempt.

Ofcourse a legendary master like Jenazad,Hayato,Ganosuke would use their powers to cause earth quakes in areas that soldiers are stationed at. Lesser masters like Seitaro and maybe Saiga can use camoflauge to infiltrate the enemy bases and take out their food supplies if not kill them. Modern weapons are too slow when it comes to aim, unless we have a master who is a complete moron or like Shigure, inexperienced/eagar to jump in, then its unlikely that a master will march in to some open battlefield to do againts tanks,helicopters or sharpshooters in the mountains.

I will give you one scenario, for example the first few times, regular soldiers can set up masters by creating a trap station were they sacrifice their own platoons to get the masters in the area so they can blow the place up and take out some masters in the casuality/pawn sacrifice. But then I suppose a master can learn to sniff explosives and not fall for the trap. If Eternal sunset happens, the masters should perform a gureilla warfare approach which is not been in open battlefields and just take out the prominent basis that soldiers are set up and in places with tons of tanks/heavy artility, they can create an earth quake if they are legendary masters and during the natural disaser they can takeout the marksmen/sharp shooters one by one.

Hayato punched the ocean, dropped to the sea floor, and then beckoned the swimming kodachi man to attack before the water caved back in.  It was awesome, but it also means that Hayato could back hand a tank shell.  It just depends on what the author feels is awesome, because it doesn't matter for the masters.  The other superman, was bending the rain as it fell from the sky with just his aura. 

the manga has always covered the styles of martial arts, but has amp'd them up on absurdities.  And it's fun, so we don't care.  But saying stuff like so-and-so can't survive a tank shell is not wholly clear.  Apachai kneed a helicopter and made it crash.  I think Hayato flipped a tank.  For the masters, their limit is more - "what is funny?" 

Hayato punched the ocean, dropped to the sea floor, and then beckoned the swimming kodachi man to attack before the water caved back in.  It was awesome, but it also means that Hayato could back hand a tank shell.  It just depends on what the author feels is awesome, because it doesn't matter for the masters.  The other superman, was bending the rain as it fell from the sky with just his aura. 

 

the manga has always covered the styles of martial arts, but has amp'd them up on absurdities.  And it's fun, so we don't care.  But saying stuff like so-and-so can't survive a tank shell is not wholly clear.  Apachai kneed a helicopter and made it crash.  I think Hayato flipped a tank.  For the masters, their limit is more - "what is funny?" 

Actually, one of the things I like the most about this manga is that there is a strange consistency among the "power of cool and funny" atmosphere. I, and later Ogata as well, made a number of a very long posts in the last few chapter threads collating all the events in the manga in a logical manner, apply some physics when appropriate, and find that almost all of the feats in the manga of the various levels of power fit together logically.

It could be coincidental, but I would like to believe that Matsuena-sensei is a very good story-teller who manage to show the absurd in a consistent manner.

It's true that we never saw any of the grandmasters being hit directly by a tank shell (they are way too fast to be targeted by a tank), but we can extrapolate that "surviving a tank shell hitting directly" is about the absolute limit of the endurance cap in HSDK. Some evidences:

1) Hayato ran around using one of his secret techniques (Nanba Hashiri) to dodge a door-mounted machine gun from a heli, this means that that gun represents a serious threat to him. 1 hit definitely won't kill him, a dozen will probably put on a light wound, but a volley probably will. Going by current technology, door-mounted machine guns are typically 7.62mm, so basically assault rifle bullets fired at a much higher rate.

2) A serious punch from Sasaki, where he visibly focused power into his fist, hitting dead center, slightly bent a large i-beam (roughly 30 inches across) but did not destroy its structural integrity or even caused a visible dent, only small ripple deformations. A tank shell hitting dead center like that will sheer through the i-beam like butter. That means a tank shell is MUCH more powerful than a serious punch from a grandmaster.

Note: I will collate all the examples of grandmaster hitting solid metal targets in the series later to show that they are consistent too. The reason why we see masters capable of destroying structures so quickly is partly because their knowledge and experience allowing them to hit weakpoints, and to hit places where the materials are not completely dense and uniform such as masonry, rivet joints, thin steel plates, glass, wood, concrete, etc.

I love that consistency in this manga almost as much as the depth of psychology (which, I admit, has been slipping )

The only feat in this manga that is not consistent with everything else is the "Mach 3 kicks in 0.00002% power" scene, which I believe is just the author pulling a one-off joke, because that one feat would destroy the internal logic of HSDK-verse entirely, because if you multiply the speed and endurance needed for that feat, the Elder would be in the range of power as a super saiyan 3, and can solve everything in the manga himself, in half an hour at most. So I ignore that one feat in all analysis, or chalk it down to unclear translation or bad wording causing a misunderstanding.

Even the feat where Marmaduke ran on water while repelling 20mm cannon shots, which I thought was absurd at first, is actually consistent with the grandmaster's range of power too... The minimum speed necessary for a human being to run on water is only about 110km/h, which is well within a grandmaster marathon speed... Basically that means that all of Ryozanpaku and OSNF can run on water, just that they cannot accelerate to the necessary speed as instantly as the Elder (but with a short running start, they all can, they just don't show off as much).

So if we assumes that Marmaduke's armour is specially made and good enough to withstand 20mm shells directly (which is not unreasonable given the power scale), then she would have to be able to resist at least one 20mm cannon shots while not dipping any slower than the minimum water run speed. Reasonable estimate for the kinetic energy of a 20mm shell is 53KJ (http://en.wikipedia....i/20_mm_caliber). Let's ignore factors like air drag here, which would make those bullets weaker but would affect Marmaduke's running speed too.

So applying KE = 1/2mv^2, with m = 500kg, a reasonable estimate for Marmaduke's weight with full armour on, with Marmaduke herself being about 100kg, a very tall, large-framed, well-muscled woman, then v = SQRT(53000 * 2 / 500) = 14.56 m/s = 52 km/h

Her water run speed would have to be 5 times the minimum, since she would have roughly the same foot surface as a normal person, but 5 times the mass. She would have to be sprinting at 550km/h to be above water.

This means that Marmaduke has to run at 612 km/h at least when she intercepts the bullet, which will slow her down to 550km/h, then she must accelerate back up to at least 612km/h before the next bullet hits or else she would sink. Given that we can clock a grandmaster's short range (few hundred meters) dash speed in the 300->500 km/h range by various other evidences (see posts back in the chapter 567 and 568 thread).

Then we can explain this feat as Marmaduke having slightly higher than other grandmasters' dash speed, but still well below legendary masters' (people like Hayato, Jenazad, etc.) maximum dash speed of slightly above 800km/h.

But the calculation above is actually extremely harsh on Marmaduke. In the artwork, we see that her shield is curved, so it deflects, not blocks, those 20mm bullets, so each of those bullets only impart 20-30% of the kinetic energy that they should. We certainly saw the bullets curving away and still moving fast enough to be drawn as white lines, not anywhere near being stopped dead (it would have to be stopped dead to impart the whole KE on the target). And also since her shield is being angled outward and downward in front of her, it provides extra lift to counteract her added mass, reducing the water run speed for her.

Arrggh can't believe Marmaduke is a she...

Good analysis Citizen_Lion I agree with you and I would like to add that, HSDK masters are similar to original dragonball characters and with that logic, we saw Mercenary Tao getting severely damaged by a grenade he threw at goku which resulted him becoming a cyborg later on.

We can conclude that Mercenary Toa,Crane Hermit and Master Roshi are around legendary masters based on their feats of strength (lets ignore roshi blowing up the moon) Its also important to note that, when Mercenary Toa was looking to get a new outfit, a gunmen tried to shoot him with a bullet in which he deflected it with his sandles. This means that the likes of Roshi,Hermit and Toa also cannot take bullets or grenades and they are in a planet earth that is way more fictionalized in terms of power which supports and strengthens your theory more Citizen_lion

Now speaking off Guru Rahman, first of all if there are any indian posters I have to say that Namaste to you all and that I have been humbled and purified with the art of Kalaripayattu and how IRL it represents such a strong character that is being represented in form of Guru Rahman!!! I never knew that the indian martial arts and yoga had such an extensive science when it came to sounds/mantras as well as having a detailed and scientiefic studies on making the human body bend,move and go in such a detailed manner.

Which takes me to Guru Rahman, why is he not considered a Legendary Master??? I mean the indians believe in Siddhis which is having special powers like teleportation,Bi-location/cloning,manefistation,controling ppls sense/hypnosis(they call it Najarband in india), among other powers!

Guru Rahman has shown some freaky abilities and the first master to damage Kushinada the way he did and it was all by himself. You can call it catching her off-guard but Akisame tried that from behind and she blocked him. This means that Guru Rahman should have a higher ranking and he is as awesome as Hongo in terms of Honor and strong character.

Btw in the anime, when Ogata came down from the bridge to save Tanimoto, he climbed down the bridge Kalaripayttu style and Ogata is considered an Ancient Martial Artists which two of the martial arts he has practiced are Kung Fu and Jujitsu which are oldest styles in china and Japan and it makes you wonder if his style of martial arts also consist of Kalaripayattu since he has a dot on his forehead like Guru Rahman!!!

 

@Ogata I don't like Guru Rahman as much as you do though. He does have Honour, but only to fellow martial artists. He treated the soldiers who attacked his base as bargaining chips by hitting them close to death and rely on the RZ masters to revive them while walking away. That is unacceptable to my moral code really. Just hit them unconscious and go, as your intention was to go already. Actually, after Mantra Tantrum, the soldiers are all but confused and terrified, so there's not much more to do but disappear. In fact that might have helped him get to the chopper quicker, and Sasaki would not have made the jump after the chopper had gone just 100m more.

I do admit that the feat of catching Mikumo off-guard is impressive in itself, but just that isn't enough to make him a legendary master though. A legendary master is good enough to make mince meat out of the top end of grandmasters like Hongo and Sasaki. Guru Rahman didn't overpower Sasaki in their fight in the chopper. Granted, Sasaki is actually the ideal person to fight Rahman, because he is proof to psychological tactics and has big muscles, so is better suited to withstanding marma strikes. But Jenazad still utterly owned Hongo even despite personality fit, and the right motivation, AND Jenazad's deliberately moved around randomly, creating wasted motion to give Hongo a handicap.

Ogata most likely had researched and incorporated Kalaripayattu into his combined ancient martial arts too. Those motions on the bridge do fit, and it makes total sense to his character too.

Speaking of Dragon Ball, yes, I agree. There is a very good fit in terms of power levels btw HSDK and the original DB.

Master Roshi vs. Ma Kensei would be interesting to see. Roshi is MUCH MUCH stronger, but Kensei is MUCH MUCH faster. Roshi's top speed (100m in 5sec) is actually only in the low-end of regular master in HSDK, in fact probably just slightly faster than Sei Dou Sho or Shoeless Rimi. Kamehame ha is far too slow a technique to hit someone like Ma, but similarly Ma has nothing that can significantly damage Roshi. His strongest attack, which Ma will easily be able to connect with his speed, still won't KO Roshi, but will wound... On second though, I think Ma will win.

Roshi, Tao, and Crane are on the grandmaster class in HSDK, not legendary master, I think. They are all far too slow.

I would say Retrained Roshi, Tien Shinhan, and Goku at the end of the 2nd Tenchi Budokai are legendary master class. They will fight toe to toe with people like Hayato, Jenazad, Gannosuke, Saiga... They are STILL slower, but not as much slower anymore, and the power gap is still great, making the two groups even in terms of chances to beat each other.

I don't think Mikumo will fair that well in DB though. Everyone trained in the Turtle school are experts at Ki-feints by the time the 1st Budokai ends (master Roshi invented his own ki-based fake image technique, after all.) So she's probably demoted to grandmaster in DB, since her actual physical attributes are not above that range.

To Citizen_Lion:

In regards to Guru Rahman attacking soldiers, you have to understand that in Kalaripayattu, the training hall is called a kalari and it is a very sacred place that allows for human cultivation and any sign of break ins that disturb the place is a heinous act. Now granted his base may not have been the kalari but then again the soldiers came at him with guns and weapons disturbing his meditation and his pranayama practice. The moment when someone tries to threaten masters life or well being regardless if they are Katsujinken/Satsujinken, they have the right to do whatever they can to fight back.

Keep in mind that Guru Rahman is not like Michael Schtilvay who uses hostage or attacks defenseless women and children.

Also, he may not be a Legendary Master like Ganosuke/Hayato but the thing is, Kushinada, dodged both Sakaki and Shigure at the same time and I know some ppl are saying Guru Rahman cheap shotted Kushinada but in one of the panels, we can see Kushinadas eyes widen in surprise like "oh shit his aiming at me" and yet she coulden't dodge Guru Rahmans awesome technique.

I think the reason the author never gave Guru Rahman and Ogata a fight against ryo masters was because he intends to use both these characters in a different storyline against different opponents since at this point, whoever loses to Ryo masters loses their lusters and Im sure the author wants to give these two a good boost and so having them fight and lose to a Ryo master is no good for their character development.

In regards to dragonball vs hsdk, makes sense, until raditz arrives all the humans are grandmaster level with devastating Ki attacks but not as fast as hsdk fighters.

@Ogata I can somewhat, kinda, maybe, sorta, perhaps see the point there about the kalari, and yes, that base where he was meditating in looks like a training hall. But still, just beat the hell out of them with a flurry of punch and kicks, then go, would be what I do. Ogata skirts that boundary the best, I think. He only, ONLY, fights martial artists to the death, and those who are out for his life after seeing what he can do (like those gunmen on the bridge, aka. too stupid to recognize a monster after you see him walked casually on top of a bridge and then slid down). Ogata's bar for "martial artists" is also quite high, only those who has a legitimate chance at taking his life if he let his guard down.

But I agree that Guru Rahman and Ogata has more roles to play though. They did not have a fight with Ryo for that reason. I think Rahman is one of the more powerful of the grandmasters too, but he was at a disadvantage facing Sasaki (due to personality and style fit), who is also one of the stronger grandmasters (all of Ryo seems to be at this rank, the top end of grandmasters, with Akisame and Kensei being somewhat close to legendary in certain attributes).

In all fairness, in the beginning it was suppose to be the police leading the Ryo masters to Guru Rahmans base but the cocky police commander told them to sit behind so he could handle Then what we saw was him and his officers blowing up the place with explosives which pissed Guru Rahman off since when guns were invented the Kungfu and Kalaripayattu masters have been forced to endure great abuse and pain for being martial artists.

So in the end I can see Guru Rahman wanting to put the fear in the modern day weapon users since in a symbolic fashion, the police tried to use violence and scare tactics and guns to scare Guru Rahman so fear mantra was very ironic method of handling them and they should have known their place in the first place and not disrupted Guru Rahmans meditation.

But yeah ppl feel that Guru Rahman and Ogata are destined for beer roles/storylines and not being used for stepping stones.

Btw, have you noticed that "Modern" martial artists seem weaker than "Ancient" martial artists?

Example would be Éclair,Fortuna,Ishida, Michael Schtilvay,Seitaro, who dress in a modern fashion while Ganosuke,Hayato,Jenazad,Guru Rahman and Kushinada dress like old school martial artists and they seem like their power is far and beyond martial arts masters with a modern look (Saiga being the exception)